From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:27:30 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:27:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12661 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:24:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA11453; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:35:36 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id KAA06683; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:36:43 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01658; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:32:29 -0400 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by titan.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2731A50; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Sender: pinard@progiciels-bpi.ca To: Ulrich Drepper Cc: "Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team" , "Steve Langasek for Catalan team" , "Pofeng Lee for Chinese team" , "Vladimir Michl for Czech team" , "Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team" , "Karl Berry for English team" , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , "Toomas Soome for Estonian team" , "Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team" , "Eric Dumas for French team" , "Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team" , "Karl Eichwalder for German team" , "Simos KSenitellis for Greek team" , "Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team" , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , "Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team" , "CHOI Junho for Korean team" , "Ilya Ketris for Latvian team" , "Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team" , "Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team" , "António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team" , "Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team" , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , "Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team" , "Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team" , "Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team" , "Turan Yuksel for Turkish team" , "Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team" Subject: Re: Copying policy for PO files X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 04 Oct 1999 10:32:23 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-UIDL: eeb3ccfc8603ad5d6fe6ae8d3c7f0fa5 Status: RO Content-Length: 4680 Lines: 86 --=-=-= Hello, Ulrich. Copy to team leaders, in case they want to comment further. Something new :-(. Prompted by someone who found that PO files are not clear about which rights to copy they exactly give, Richard seems to want that PO files bear a GPL pointer for GPL'ed programs. I would not like that we impose to translators the burden of maintaining this. What could be done is that `xgettext' might produce a copyright somewhat extracted from the real sources (which source to choose for the template is not necessarily evident), in the form of a `#.' comment (that is, _not_ a translator comment), that could be glued to the PO header entry. Of course, `msgmerge' would convey over that extracted comment. The copyrighting comment should come from the real sources instead of being hardwired to the GPL or the FSF, as `gettext' may be used in context of free, but non-GPL'ed packages, having their own copying conditions. There are many accumulated details about a PO format revision or cleanup, by now. Maybe we should postpone generating the fuller copyright in PO files until we are ready to tackle all aspects of that revision, instead of making the changes one by one -- it will be less irritating to everybody that all changes occur at once, and I could at least automate many of the changes in the PO files we already have, and make it easier for everybody. Nevertheless, we may start to think about the change below, meanwhile. --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline X-From-Line: rms@gnu.org Sat Oct 2 11:44:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: from IRO.UMontreal.CA by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id PAA02570 for pinard@icule.progiciels-bpi.ca; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 15:25:17 -0400 Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via ESMTP id NAA23502 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:47:49 -0700 Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08910 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:44:34 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id NAA28967 for pinard@icule.progiciels-bpi.ca; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:44:20 -0400 Received: from pele.santafe.edu (pele.santafe.edu [192.12.12.119]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28961 for ; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 13:44:19 -0400 Received: from aztec.santafe.edu (aztec [192.12.12.49]) by pele.santafe.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21076; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 11:44:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from rms@localhost) by aztec.santafe.edu (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA29153; Sat, 2 Oct 1999 11:44:15 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 11:44:15 -0600 (MDT) X-Gnus-Mail-Source: pop:pinard@icule.progiciels-bpi.ca Message-Id: <199910021744.LAA29153@aztec.santafe.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: aztec.santafe.edu: rms set sender to rms@gnu.org using -f From: Richard Stallman To: iida@secom-sis.co.jp CC: gnu@gnu.org, translation@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: <99Oct1.194937jst.27781@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> (message from IIDA Yosiaki on Fri, 1 Oct 1999 19:55:55 +0900) Subject: Re: Copying policy for PO files Reply-to: rms@gnu.org References: <199909292215.SAA11483@mescaline.gnu.org> <99Oct1.194937jst.27781@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> X-UIDL: 117e8cf58a1bcaf7dbb69d646f56d334 X-Content-Length: 982 Xref: titan.progiciels-bpi.ca po.all:2156 Lines: 22 I see typical copyright stuff takes a dozen of lines, but I do think writing these lines in a PO file is the right thing and worth doing, especially the PO file has lots of translations. How about this? If a PO file is less than 30 lines, just write on it "This file is in the public domain." If a PO file is larger than that, put a simplified version of usual GPL notice: Copyright (C) ...copied from the program... This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. Francois, what do you think? --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=-- From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:27:53 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:27:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from cygnus.com (runyon.cygnus.com [205.180.230.5]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA10239 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:30:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from otr.mynet (dhcp-sv-0E.cygnus.com [205.180.231.74]) by runyon.cygnus.com (8.8.7-cygnus/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10022; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from drepper@localhost) by otr.mynet (8.9.3/8.9.3/ud-990718) id KAA07422; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:22:11 -0700 Sender: drepper@cygnus.com To: François Pinard Cc: "Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team" , "Steve Langasek for Catalan team" , "Pofeng Lee for Chinese team" , "Vladimir Michl for Czech team" , "Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team" , "Karl Berry for English team" , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , "Toomas Soome for Estonian team" , "Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team" , "Eric Dumas for French team" , "Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team" , "Karl Eichwalder for German team" , "Simos KSenitellis for Greek team" , "Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team" , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , "Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team" , "CHOI Junho for Korean team" , "Ilya Ketris for Latvian team" , "Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team" , "Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team" , "António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team " , "Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team" , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , "Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team" , "Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team" Subject: Re: Copying policy for PO files References: Reply-To: drepper@cygnus.com (Ulrich Drepper) X-fingerprint: BE 3B 21 04 BC 77 AC F0 61 92 E4 CB AC DD B9 5A Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ulrich Drepper Date: 04 Oct 1999 10:22:11 -0700 In-Reply-To: François Pinard's message of "04 Oct 1999 10:32:23 -0400" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Big Bend" X-UIDL: 45e4e512163dfeb3015603ee2b1e0d98 Status: RO Content-Length: 1542 Lines: 31 François Pinard writes: > I would not like that we impose to translators the burden of maintaining > this. What could be done is that `xgettext' might produce a copyright > somewhat extracted from the real sources (which source to choose for the > template is not necessarily evident), in the form of a `#.' comment (that > is, _not_ a translator comment), that could be glued to the PO header entry. > Of course, `msgmerge' would convey over that extracted comment. Well, give me a heuristic which always works and I'll use it. But I doubt this really works. I don't talk about the nicely formatted NGU programs but others which have a more relaxed format. And then there is the problem which file you take the copyright from. Glibc, as an example, contains files from different places with different copyright. Which one does apply? Even the "first file decides" rules might fail. Next problem: what does msgmerge do if the copyrights of the old and template file do not match? And this is probably not the last problem. I don't like to put the burden on the translators either but it seems to be the only reliable way. We might add an option to xgettext which allows putting a copyright message at the top automatically (maybe from a template file) but this requires discussion. -- ---------------. drepper at gnu.org ,-. 1325 Chesapeake Terrace Ulrich Drepper \ ,-------------------' \ Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA Cygnus Solutions `--' drepper at cygnus.com `------------------------ From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:28:32 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:28:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA04288 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 05:01:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19368; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:52:00 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id WAA11239; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:54:59 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04530; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:50:20 -0400 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by titan.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA45F50; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Sender: pinard@progiciels-bpi.ca To: "Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team" , "Steve Langasek for Catalan team" , "Pofeng Lee for Chinese team" , "Vladimir Michl for Czech team" , "Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team" , "Karl Berry for English team" , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , "Toomas Soome for Estonian team" , "Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team" , "Eric Dumas for French team" , "Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team" , "Karl Eichwalder for German team" , "Simos KSenitellis for Greek team" , "Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team" , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , "Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team" , "CHOI Junho for Korean team" , "Ilya Ketris for Latvian team" , "Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team" , "Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team" , "António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team" , "Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team" , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , "Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team" , "Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team" , "Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team" , "Tawatchai Iempairote for Thai team" , "Turan Yuksel for Turkish team" , "Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team" Subject: Proper spelling of names X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 04 Oct 1999 22:50:06 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: d49877a18af61e4131fca64625fce4e5 Status: RO Content-Length: 1532 Lines: 30 Hi, people. The registry of the Translation Project is currently held as a Latin-1 file, which is highly chauvinistic, surely improper, and uncomfortable overall. One day, someway, we shall have translators' names properly written, using their own script as the primary key, instead of phonetic spellings, approximated diacritics, transliteration, or other kinds of various mangling. I may not have all the tools handy to do better, and even then, maybe not on all machines involved in the Translation Project. Nevertheless, I do want to prepare for this. So, I decided to at least start collecting the real writing of people's names, for all those names which do not express correctly with the Latin-1 character set. By tomorrow, the file: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/registry/names-mule as well as neighbouring files, will exist to hold the true spelling of translators' names, waiting for the big jump to occur in our Project. It will start almost empty. I'm asking for the complicity of all team leaders using anything else than Latin-1, to get those files as straight, precise and complete as possible, as per the current members of their team. We may have difficulty to succeed this right now, but let's honestly try. Thanks for your collaboration. P.S. - If you know how to best represent people's name within the Web pages, please guide me. I'll try to get them straight as well, whenever possible. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:28:34 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:28:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from norad.dodds.net (wilson-171-234.res.iastate.edu [129.186.171.234]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA18912 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 06:07:33 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from localhost (vorlon@localhost) by norad.dodds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA30332; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:53:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:53:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Langasek To: François Pinard cc: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team , Pofeng Lee for Chinese team , Vladimir Michl for Czech team , Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team , Karl Berry for English team , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , Toomas Soome for Estonian team , Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team , Eric Dumas for French team , Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team , Karl Eichwalder for German team , Simos KSenitellis for Greek team , Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team , CHOI Junho for Korean team , Ilya Ketris for Latvian team , Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team , Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team , António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team , Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team , Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team , Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team , Tawatchai Iempairote for Thai team , Turan Yuksel for Turkish team , Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-UIDL: 4a358fa25862de7d68126a1da538d047 Status: RO Content-Length: 512 Lines: 14 On 4 Oct 1999, François Pinard wrote: > I may not have all the tools handy to do better, and even then, maybe not > on all machines involved in the Translation Project. Nevertheless, I do > want to prepare for this. So, I decided to at least start collecting the > real writing of people's names, for all those names which do not express > correctly with the Latin-1 character set. What character set do you intend to use for these files in the future? Unicode/UTF-8? -Steve Langasek postmodern programmer From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:28:40 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:28:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from istari.ccu.ut.ee (istari.ccu.ut.ee [193.40.5.31]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA16886 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:05:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from ut.ee (tsoome@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by istari.ccu.ut.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3/istari-1.1) with ESMTP id KAA11896; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:56:00 +0300 (EET DST) Sender: tsoome@ccu.ut.ee Message-ID: <37F9AF0C.BDB2196E@ut.ee> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:55:56 +0300 From: Toomas Soome Organization: Tartu University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: et, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Langasek CC: François Pinard , Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team , Pofeng Lee for Chinese team , Vladimir Michl for Czech team , Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team , Karl Berry for English team , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team , Eric Dumas for French team , Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team , Karl Eichwalder for German team , Simos KSenitellis for Greek team , Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team , CHOI Junho for Korean team , Ilya Ketris for Latvian team , Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team , Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team , António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team , Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team , Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team , Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team.@istari.ccu.ut.ee, Tawatchai Iempairote for Thai team , Turan Yuksel for Turkish team , Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by correo.ctv.es id KAA16886 X-UIDL: a80e3aed1664c634701751d67f11d079 Status: RO Content-Length: 1123 Lines: 27 Steve Langasek wrote: > > On 4 Oct 1999, François Pinard wrote: > > > I may not have all the tools handy to do better, and even then, maybe not > > on all machines involved in the Translation Project. Nevertheless, I do > > want to prepare for this. So, I decided to at least start collecting the > > real writing of people's names, for all those names which do not express > > correctly with the Latin-1 character set. > > What character set do you intend to use for these files in the future? > Unicode/UTF-8? > actually, charset should be the same to whitch the locale is useing - so all names should be ok. anyway, if there are several charsets for language, translations must be available for all of these charsets - usually this could be done with simple conversion - if "base" source is utf-8 one can relatively easily convert to whatever [currently usable] 8 bit charset... this will naturally mean, the utf-8 is a good candidate. however - is there enough software support to produce utf-8 texts? toomas -- Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform. -- Mark Twain From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:28:51 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:28:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA11866 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:39:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25726; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:27:24 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id JAA14658; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:30:33 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01272; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:25:53 -0400 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by titan.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729F250; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Sender: pinard@progiciels-bpi.ca To: Toomas Soome Cc: "Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team" , "Steve Langasek for Catalan team" , "Pofeng Lee for Chinese team" , "Vladimir Michl for Czech team" , "Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team" , "Karl Berry for English team" , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , "Toomas Soome for Estonian team" , "Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team" , "Eric Dumas for French team" , "Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team" , "Karl Eichwalder for German team" , "Simos KSenitellis for Greek team" , "Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team" , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , "Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team" , "CHOI Junho for Korean team" , "Ilya Ketris for Latvian team" , "Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team" , "Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team" , "António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team" , "Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team" , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , "Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team" , "Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team" , "Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team" , "Tawatchai Iempairote for Thai team" , "Turan Yuksel for Turkish team" , "Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team" Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: <37F9AF0C.BDB2196E@ut.ee> X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 05 Oct 1999 09:25:45 -0400 In-Reply-To: Toomas Soome's message of "Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:55:56 +0300" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: 23d56579bd82f528a0708c3e6956040b Status: RO Content-Length: 1380 Lines: 29 Toomas Soome écrit: > however - is there enough software support to produce utf-8 texts? The question applies for all/most solutions, and there is no universal solution, and I do not think all team leaders will necessarily be able to see everything instantly. For one, if I'm going to edit the files, I need: * to type the characters on a keyboard (or at the very least, cut-and-paste them :-), * to have characters displayed, * to store characters into files, and read them back. Moreover, the robot should be able to make sense of characters. Oops! :-) The `yudit' editor is able to read and write many usual charsets, but not Mule. Emacs is able to read and write many things, but not Unicode. I've heard that some Mule people are working at handling Unicode. My `recode' tool is still pretty weak about Asian codings, it knows nothing about Mule, but at least, it gives me some means to learn and fight, and I have good collaborators and friends that would help me, I hope. I hope that solutions will develop. Maybe that we will raise some collecting wisdom by comparing our methods and sharing our solutions. The Translation Project might even keep a few documents about this, or just create a collection of useful links. Let's see where this will bring us. Many avenues are opened. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:28:52 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:28:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from istari.ccu.ut.ee (istari.ccu.ut.ee [193.40.5.31]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA15471 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:46:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from ut.ee (tsoome@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by istari.ccu.ut.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3/istari-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA13873; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:35:28 +0300 (EET DST) Sender: tsoome@ccu.ut.ee Message-ID: <37F9FEA0.808B9F43@ut.ee> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:35:28 +0300 From: Toomas Soome Organization: Tartu University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [et] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: et, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: François Pinard CC: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team , Steve Langasek for Catalan team , Pofeng Lee for Chinese team , Vladimir Michl for Czech team , Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team , Karl Berry for English team , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team , Eric Dumas for French team , Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team , Karl Eichwalder for German team , Simos KSenitellis for Greek team , Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team , CHOI Junho for Korean team , Ilya Ketris for Latvian team , Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team , "Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team" , "António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team" , Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team , Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team , "Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team" <" göran"@uddeborg.pp.se>, Tawatchai Iempairote for Thai team , Turan Yuksel for Turkish team , Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: <37F9AF0C.BDB2196E@ut.ee> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by correo.ctv.es id PAA15471 X-UIDL: db81cfc16e9b501f10e917f64de55805 Status: RO Content-Length: 829 Lines: 24 François Pinard wrote: > > Toomas Soome écrit: > > > however - is there enough software support to produce utf-8 texts? > > The question applies for all/most solutions, and there is no universal > solution, and I do not think all team leaders will necessarily be able to > see everything instantly. For one, if I'm going to edit the files, I need: > > * to type the characters on a keyboard (or at the very least, cut-and-paste > them :-), > * to have characters displayed, > * to store characters into files, and read them back. > > Moreover, the robot should be able to make sense of characters. Oops! :-) yeah. actually, if you have utf-8 locale in your os, then creating utf-8 texts is no problem at all:) toomas -- In Denver it is unlawful to lend your vacuum cleaner to your next-door neighbor. From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:28:49 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:28:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA10664 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:37:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25186; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:07:29 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id JAA14496; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:10:31 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01109; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:05:12 -0400 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by titan.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21F350; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Sender: pinard@progiciels-bpi.ca To: Steve Langasek Cc: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team , Pofeng Lee for Chinese team , Vladimir Michl for Czech team , Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team , Karl Berry for English team , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , Toomas Soome for Estonian team , Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team , Eric Dumas for French team , Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team , Karl Eichwalder for German team , Simos KSenitellis for Greek team , Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team , CHOI Junho for Korean team , Ilya Ketris for Latvian team , Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team , Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team , António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team , Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team , Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team , Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team , Tawatchai Iempairote for Thai team , Turan Yuksel for Turkish team , Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 05 Oct 1999 09:05:00 -0400 In-Reply-To: Steve Langasek's message of "Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:53:27 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: 20bd9dfa34c99c5ee8a627ac6cca325b Status: RO Content-Length: 3992 Lines: 71 Steve Langasek écrit: > > I may not have all the tools handy to do better, and even then, maybe not > > on all machines involved in the Translation Project. Nevertheless, I do > > want to prepare for this. So, I decided to at least start collecting the > > real writing of people's names, for all those names which do not express > > correctly with the Latin-1 character set. > What character set do you intend to use for these files in the future? > Unicode/UTF-8? Hi, Steve, and people. I'm quite tempted to use UTF-8, indeed. However, I'm not fanatic about it. It mostly depends if Japanese and Chinese teams feel comfortable, or not, with it. Unicode abolishes the distinction between numerous characters which look similar to us Westerners, but which are written slightly differently, and pronounced totally differently. There is a war in that area. Proponents of UTF-8 take a side in that war, sometimes speaking a lot, showing quite strong opinions, but too often without any serious _deep_ cultural background about it, to the point it gets very indecent. It humiliates me to be a Westerner when I see such attitudes. This is not to us to tell Chinese and Japanese what they need or want for themselves. I let them tell me. My strong opinion is that I should not have one! Technically, UTF-8 is very elegant. Unicode has technical advantages and drawbacks. I sometimes insist on drawbacks, to react against those who think that Unicode bluntly solves all problems, that it is just perfect. I do think Unicode has much more technical advantages than drawbacks. But if it bulldozes cultural distinctions which are important to people, merely because 16 bits once was nicer to computers than bigger quantities, Unicode is an organised failure, whatever elegant it may be. Some people completely mix up what Unicode is, and what Unicode could be. They say something like "we have 2^31 positions in UTF-8, which is enough to make everybody happy: problem solved!". Unicode (or ISO 10646, I do not make the distinction here) is much more than a coding scheme. This is an organisation attributing characters to code points, and setting precise conventions about these attributions. The real big tedious job is there. If Unicode is not acceptable to Asian communities as it stands _today_, we should not use it now on the premise it will eventually be transformed into something acceptable, merely because there is no technical limitation. The real problem is nothing technical. All this being said, and nevertheless, if all teams agree, I would be very happy that we aim UTF-8 in the long run. The simplicity of my life is not the final end of everything, but it would make my life simpler. If UTF-8 is not acceptable, three avenues pop to mind, none being fully attractive to me, but maybe workable after all, I'm not fully sure. * One is using what Asian people already use to represent Western characters in their current practice, it usually involves variations upon ISO 2022: simpler to be a drop in a sea, than trying to put the sea within a drop. * Another would consist of holding multi-linguistic files as a multi-part MIME message body, changing charsets as needed. Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen's Gnus has been a proof to me that this can be very doable. Too heavy, maybe! * A last avenue, which does not please me at all, but which I'm using right now short of knowing better, is using Mule internal coding in external files. It would be ridiculous to even think imposing Emacs on everybody, and Mule converters do not exist yet (I might write one, if I'm ever able to understand enough of it :-). I use Mule for the interim, to save precious information, until I'm ready to switch to a more proper format. You see, the whole thing is not fully evident. But I guess we should not avoid the issue forever, and attempting to dive is a good way to address it. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:29:43 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:29:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from norad.dodds.net (wilson-171-234.res.iastate.edu [129.186.171.234]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA27176 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 02:11:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from localhost (vorlon@localhost) by norad.dodds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13216; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:58:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:58:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Langasek To: team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca cc: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes for Brazilian Portuguese team , Pofeng Lee for Chinese team , Vladimir Michl for Czech team , Ivo Timmermans for Dutch team , Karl Berry for English team , "D. Dale Gulledge for Esperanto team" , Toomas Soome for Estonian team , Kalle Olavi Niemitalo for Finnish team , Eric Dumas for French team , Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team , Karl Eichwalder for German team , Simos KSenitellis for Greek team , Eli Zaretskii for Hebrew team , "Thorarinn R. Einarsson for Icelandic team" , "Marco d'Itri for Italian team" , Iida Yosiaki for Japanese team , CHOI Junho for Korean team , Ilya Ketris for Latvian team , Eivind Tagseth for Norwegian team , Rafa³ Maszkowski for Polish team , António Jose Coutinho for Portuguese team , Tudor Hulubei for Romanian team , "Denis Y. Pershin for Russian team" , Veselin Mijuskovic for Serbian team , Santiago Vila Doncel for Spanish team , Göran Uddeborg for Swedish team , Tawatchai Iempairote for Thai team , Turan Yuksel for Turkish team , Igor Sachko for Ukrainian team Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-UIDL: 892eac4ebc9eecee8999e865cd285817 Status: RO Content-Length: 2652 Lines: 49 Well, I received François' test letter with no problem, I'm going to assume this new list address works and start using it. On 5 Oct 1999, François Pinard wrote: > I'm quite tempted to use UTF-8, indeed. However, I'm not fanatic about it. > It mostly depends if Japanese and Chinese teams feel comfortable, or not, > with it. Unicode abolishes the distinction between numerous characters > which look similar to us Westerners, but which are written slightly > differently, and pronounced totally differently. There is a war in that > area. Proponents of UTF-8 take a side in that war, sometimes speaking > a lot, showing quite strong opinions, but too often without any serious > _deep_ cultural background about it, to the point it gets very indecent. > It humiliates me to be a Westerner when I see such attitudes. This is not > to us to tell Chinese and Japanese what they need or want for themselves. > I let them tell me. My strong opinion is that I should not have one! Yes, I am aware of the problems with UTF-8 and Chinese/Japanese/Korean, which is why I ask. I don't think current web browsers permit you to use multiple character sets in a single document. :( If the names in these files are going to be accessible to everyone, and not just to those who use specialized tools to read the file, then I think we're limited to Unicode for the time being. > * A last avenue, which does not please me at all, but which I'm using right > now short of knowing better, is using Mule internal coding in external > files. It would be ridiculous to even think imposing Emacs on everybody, > and Mule converters do not exist yet (I might write one, if I'm ever > able to understand enough of it :-). I use Mule for the interim, to save > precious information, until I'm ready to switch to a more proper format. Ah, this was the meaning of the -mule in the filename, then? :) Since I don't use Emacs (yes, I'm a heathen) I didn't recognize the name. I thought about multipart documents, as well as embedded character set information, such as is used in email headers (is this an ISO standard? I don't know). Again, this isn't a good general solution, IMHO: few common text-processing applications support these methods. Perhaps a hybrid solution is best? If the Asian teams don't want to use UTF-8, then UTF-8 could still be used for all of the /other/ languages. One of the other methods could be used to combine UTF-8 text and the text which uses Asian character sets into a single file. This solution has the advantage of requiring support for fewer character sets (4 or less?). -Steve Langasek postmodern programmer From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:29:28 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:29:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA22065 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:18:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id QAA16246 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:00:21 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16242 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:00:20 -0400 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA31773; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:00:04 -0400 To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Trying the `team-leaders' list X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 05 Oct 1999 15:59:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1adb79cf8a1e27ebbe3c613023999543 Status: RO Content-Length: 1131 Lines: 24 Hi, people. After a suggestion from Karl Berry, leader of the English team, I asked UdeM/DIRO(*) administrators to open a list for us, would it be only to avoid those long lists of explicit headers, but also to ease replying. They kindly accepted. I will check the configuration more closely at some later time, but if everything has been set correctly, all leaders of national teams in the Translation Project should receive a copy of this message. I should also get a copy, as I asked to be put on the list myself, even if not strictly a team leader. I hope nobody will object too seriously! :-) I would like to receive a few confirmations that the list is working correctly, so please send a quick note saying that you are reading me. The list is accessible as `team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca'. This is a closed list, people cannot subscribe themselves, and outsiders cannot use it. That should allow us to work in peace. Consider yourselves as forming the administrative board of the Translation Project. I would much like that we take care of it altogether. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:29:48 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:29:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA08976 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 02:53:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id UAA08975 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:39:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08972 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:39:43 -0400 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA01689 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:39:29 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id UAA19102 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:42:39 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03511; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 03:37:37 -0400 To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: `team-leaders' seems to work! :-) X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 05 Oct 1999 20:38:24 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 6a917f95ec79f3c9a6b38e5a0c772291 Status: RO Content-Length: 4234 Lines: 82 --=-=-= Hi, people. Thanks for those who sent me feedback, it now seems that `team-leaders' work. We even had our first reject! :-) Majordomo said: "Header field too long (>1024)" because of the long Cc: to everybody. I guess it will now be sufficient to use the simple line: To: team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca to get the message through! I will carefully check that everybody is there, but maybe not today. And forward messages if necessary. Here is the rejected message, with some headers expunged, for simplicity. By the way, if someone in the list feels like beginning an archive from the start, please do so. For one, I prefer to get rid of messages once the included matters have settled, so I do not feel like doing an archive on my side. I would not ask UdeM/DIRO to do it, if unnatural to them. They give me a lot of service already, I would not abuse with requests. --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:58:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Langasek To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Well, I received François' test letter with no problem, I'm going to assume this new list address works and start using it. On 5 Oct 1999, François Pinard wrote: > I'm quite tempted to use UTF-8, indeed. However, I'm not fanatic about it. > It mostly depends if Japanese and Chinese teams feel comfortable, or not, > with it. Unicode abolishes the distinction between numerous characters > which look similar to us Westerners, but which are written slightly > differently, and pronounced totally differently. There is a war in that > area. Proponents of UTF-8 take a side in that war, sometimes speaking > a lot, showing quite strong opinions, but too often without any serious > _deep_ cultural background about it, to the point it gets very indecent. > It humiliates me to be a Westerner when I see such attitudes. This is not > to us to tell Chinese and Japanese what they need or want for themselves. > I let them tell me. My strong opinion is that I should not have one! Yes, I am aware of the problems with UTF-8 and Chinese/Japanese/Korean, which is why I ask. I don't think current web browsers permit you to use multiple character sets in a single document. :( If the names in these files are going to be accessible to everyone, and not just to those who use specialized tools to read the file, then I think we're limited to Unicode for the time being. > * A last avenue, which does not please me at all, but which I'm using right > now short of knowing better, is using Mule internal coding in external > files. It would be ridiculous to even think imposing Emacs on everybody, > and Mule converters do not exist yet (I might write one, if I'm ever > able to understand enough of it :-). I use Mule for the interim, to save > precious information, until I'm ready to switch to a more proper format. Ah, this was the meaning of the -mule in the filename, then? :) Since I don't use Emacs (yes, I'm a heathen) I didn't recognize the name. I thought about multipart documents, as well as embedded character set information, such as is used in email headers (is this an ISO standard? I don't know). Again, this isn't a good general solution, IMHO: few common text-processing applications support these methods. Perhaps a hybrid solution is best? If the Asian teams don't want to use UTF-8, then UTF-8 could still be used for all of the /other/ languages. One of the other methods could be used to combine UTF-8 text and the text which uses Asian character sets into a single file. This solution has the advantage of requiring support for fewer character sets (4 or less?). -Steve Langasek postmodern programmer --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=-- From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:29:59 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:29:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA19952 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 03:37:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id VAA10772 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:23:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10769 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:23:12 -0400 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA02068; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:22:27 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id VAA19342; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:25:37 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03553; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 04:20:29 -0400 To: Steve Langasek Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 05 Oct 1999 21:21:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: Steve Langasek's message of "Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:58:17 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: be5d2167b25afb946e41ba8403c437d0 Status: RO Content-Length: 3722 Lines: 70 Steve Langasek écrit: > I don't think current web browsers permit you to use multiple character > sets in a single document. :( I do not know how fonts are managed in bitmapped browsers like Netscape and Internet Explorer, and I do not know if Lynx does something about it. If by any chance someone in the gang has some knowledge about this, please share it. > If the names in these files are going to be accessible to everyone, > and not just to those who use specialized tools to read the file, then > I think we're limited to Unicode for the time being. I would be much surprised if Unicode is readily available to all translators. In my own case, it requires unusual actions to become visible, this is not on my normal work path. Also, if we have to use something bigger than Unicode, we can try to derive UTF-8 files out of those to be of service, but we should not accept loosing information in our true originals, if it can be avoided. > Ah, this was the meaning of the -mule in the filename, then? :) Since I > don't use Emacs (yes, I'm a heathen) I didn't recognize the name. Emacs has a long and steep learning curve. We are repaid through the capability of using (or even building) fairly sophisticated editing environments, yielding a lot of speed and comfort. In fact, I became a benevolent for free software after I felt I should return to the community at least a part of all the time Emacs allowed me to save in my daily works. But for those using computers once in a while, instead of all day long, Emacs is quite an overkill, and I quite agree it should never be imposed. > I thought about multipart documents, as well as embedded character set > information, such as is used in email headers (is this an ISO standard? I > don't know). Again, this isn't a good general solution, IMHO: few > common text-processing applications support these methods. My fear is that, whatever solution we choose, there are few tools. The first goal should be to at least start saving the real information. Another goal should be to see how we can acquire the software tools we need, peacefully, without religious wars for one or against another, of course. > Perhaps a hybrid solution is best? If the Asian teams don't want to use > UTF-8, then UTF-8 could still be used for all of the /other/ languages. Consider the registry of the Translation Project, references in the `ChangeLog' files, or the various `THANKS' files edited by many maintainers. It would be very inelegant to have a `THANKS' file for Asiatic people, and another `THANKS' file for Westerners. We really need ways to express, in a single file, names from many nationalities. I'm not saying that UTF-8 is not a solution, it might well be. Or maybe not. We will see what happens while driving the experiment. If no solution exists, we will create one. But to be honest, solutions might exist already, in which case we will have to make so they become bearable. Bearable Mule. Bearable multi-parts. Bearable 2022. Whatever! Or we may start with the bet that UTF-8 will be sufficient, as long as it stays a moderate choice that we will accept to change if it fails to be satisfactory, instead of becoming fanatic and turning UTF-8 into _the_ goal. > One of the other methods could be used to combine UTF-8 text and the text > which uses Asian character sets into a single file. This solution has > the advantage of requiring support for fewer character sets (4 or less?). What do you have in head, here? Or in other terms, how would you get that mix done? Are you thinking about using the two verboten bytes (254 and 255)? Or some encapsulating? -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:30:08 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:30:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA09030 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:56:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id WAA14142 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:42:50 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from norad.dodds.net (IDENT:root@wilson-171-234.res.iastate.edu [129.186.171.234]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14137 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:42:34 -0400 Received: from localhost (vorlon@localhost) by norad.dodds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19852 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:42:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:42:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Langasek To: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c3082a7aedf0684cdc25081ec432500f Status: RO Content-Length: 1927 Lines: 41 On 5 Oct 1999, François Pinard wrote: > > I don't think current web browsers permit you to use multiple character > > sets in a single document. :( > I do not know how fonts are managed in bitmapped browsers like Netscape > and Internet Explorer, and I do not know if Lynx does something about it. > If by any chance someone in the gang has some knowledge about this, please > share it. I don't think it's a font problem; I think the problem is that Netscape and Internet Explorer don't understand multi-part document types. Perhaps there are plug-ins that could convert them into something Netscape understands, or perhaps we could write a plug-in to do so. But then we have the same problem: what encoding is used for the output? > My fear is that, whatever solution we choose, there are few tools. > The first goal should be to at least start saving the real information. > Another goal should be to see how we can acquire the software tools we need, > peacefully, without religious wars for one or against another, of course. I agree. > > One of the other methods could be used to combine UTF-8 text and the text > > which uses Asian character sets into a single file. This solution has > > the advantage of requiring support for fewer character sets (4 or less?). > What do you have in head, here? Or in other terms, how would you get that > mix done? Are you thinking about using the two verboten bytes (254 and 255)? > Or some encapsulating? Encapsulating. Multi-part MIME would require this anyway. So would ISO 2022, if I understand it correctly. If Unicode alone is not acceptable, then we must use *some* method for indicating the current character set and encoding. Surely we can use UTF-8 as one of the encodings, in the same way that we could use ISO-8859-1, -2, -3... I think switching between a few character sets is better than switching between many. -Steve Langasek postmodern programmer From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:30:12 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:30:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA16475 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:27:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id XAA15355 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:13:19 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailout2.nyroc.rr.com (mailout2-0.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.121]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15352 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:13:17 -0400 Received: from Default ([24.95.197.169]) by mailout2.nyroc.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:06:12 -0400 Message-ID: <00c801bf0fa9$71d16060$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> From: "Dale Gulledge" To: "Steve Langasek" , "Translation Project" Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:18:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7eefe0ddd756dcd8a06f0fb2ff2ed909 Status: RO Content-Length: 1241 Lines: 25 Steve Langasek wrote: > Encapsulating. Multi-part MIME would require this anyway. So would ISO > 2022, if I understand it correctly. If Unicode alone is not acceptable, > then we must use *some* method for indicating the current character set > and encoding. Surely we can use UTF-8 as one of the encodings, in the > same way that we could use ISO-8859-1, -2, -3... I think switching > between a few character sets is better than switching between many. Presumably, the majority of the text in this, and any similar file for future projects, will be in a single language. The majority of the names in many projects would be well handled by Unicode. It has excellent support for everything in the ISO-8859 family and a variety of others. If ISO 2022 can switch between Unicode and various Asian character sets, i would think that it would be a good choice. The problem is really one of what encoding is adequate to our needs and is available through tools we have now. I would prefer something that Emacs can be made to read, even if it can't display all of the characters right now. Can someone clarify for me whether or not MULE is based heavily on ISO 2022? I thought it was, but I am unfamiliar with the internals. - Dale From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:30:26 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:30:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13895 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:46:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id GAA30444 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:32:06 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA30440 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:32:04 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27788>; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:24:07 +0900 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:30:41 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct6.192407jst.27788@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: dsplat@rochester.rr.com CC: vorlon@dodds.net, team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: <00c801bf0fa9$71d16060$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5ccf50377819c687cb4dae00c3b4e15c Status: RO Content-Length: 989 Lines: 26 "Dale Gulledge" writes: >Can someone clarify for me whether or not MULE is based heavily on ISO 2022? Probably not so heavily. GNU Emacs version 20, as well as MULE, can handle ISO2022 extension and many ECMA registered character sets. Both of them can handle ISO2022, but that is not all. With GNU Emacs, you will see all by executing universal- coding-system-argument command bound to ``C-x RET c'', giving ``ISO-'' as arg and then completing with TAB, SPC or question mark. UTF handling is not yet supported by them and it is now being worked. You may want to try XEmacs 21.2.19 UTF-2000 Version 0.8: ftp://ftp.m17n.org/pub/utf-2000/ >I thought it was, but I am unfamiliar with the internals. Internally, GNU Emacs and MULE have their common character representation. GNU Emacs calls it ``emacs-mule''. As far as I remember, MULE calls it ``*internal*''. I don't know whether it is common between XEmacs above and other two. -- iida From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:32:10 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:32:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18302 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:06:04 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id KAA07757 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:02:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailgw1.netvision.net.il (mailgw1.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.14]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07752 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:02:49 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by mailgw1.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11400; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:02:48 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13986; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:59:27 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:59:26 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: Dale Gulledge cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: <00c801bf0fa9$71d16060$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: cd0ab4ffa4f62c66c228ed7197d9a168 Status: RO Content-Length: 227 Lines: 7 On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Dale Gulledge wrote: > Can someone clarify for me whether or not MULE is based heavily on ISO 2022? Define ``based heavily''. If you mean that the internal MULE encoding is ISO 2022, then it's not true. From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:30:17 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:30:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA13184 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:28:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id BAA20183 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:14:43 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20180 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:14:42 -0400 Received: by rachael.franken.de via sendmail with stdio id for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:14:40 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built DST-Sep-8) Received: from chico.franken.de(193.175.24.33) via SMTP by rachael.franken.de, id smtpdAAAa29037; Wed Oct 6 06:13:58 1999 Received: by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA id m11YjOo-005CHOC; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:13:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by tux.gnu.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 0) id 873EB1C971; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:05:10 +0200 (CEST) To: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: From: Karl Eichwalder Date: 06 Oct 1999 07:05:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: François Pinard's message of "05 Oct 1999 21:21:15 -0400" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: d2b9c3fd6d3a9edbf303cd6fdfdb6f87 Status: RO Content-Length: 1232 Lines: 26 François Pinard writes: | Consider the registry of the Translation Project, references in the | `ChangeLog' files, or the various `THANKS' files edited by many | maintainers. It would be very inelegant to have a `THANKS' file for | Asiatic people, and another `THANKS' file for Westerners. At this point, I do like to disagree. If I'm reading a german document, it's of no use to me, to see names in "foreign" glyphs. I've to know, how a pronounce these names (approximately). This means, a transcription should be used. OTOH, I don't mind, if greek, russian or chinese document writers transcribe my name in their languages, too. "Mixed" documents are only useful, if you want to write a greek grammer book for english people or if an scientist will write an scientific book in german about russian litterature and he has to quote parts of novels of Tolstoj(?), etc. In ein english/american ChangeLog or THANKS file you must not use glyphs/fonts/characters unknown to english readers. And please, François, don't mixup your web pages ;) -- work : ke@suse.de Karl Eichwalder private: ke@gnu.franken.de From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:32:14 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:32:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA20296 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:09:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id KAA07974 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:07:14 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailgw1.netvision.net.il (mailgw1.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.14]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07970 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:07:12 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by mailgw1.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12181; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:07:06 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14013; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:03:45 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:03:45 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: Karl Eichwalder cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 4afaeecba89d65e022be4141e1e87f0b Status: RO Content-Length: 821 Lines: 21 On 6 Oct 1999, Karl Eichwalder wrote: > At this point, I do like to disagree. If I'm reading a german document, > it's of no use to me, to see names in "foreign" glyphs. I've to know, > how a pronounce these names (approximately). This means, a > transcription should be used. Hear, hear! > in german about russian litterature and he has to quote parts of novels > of Tolstoj(?), etc. If we are going for transcription (as I hope we would), then the above spelling of the writer's name will be one of the (relatively simple) problems we will need to solve. AFAIK, the Russian way of transcribing differs from what is accepted in Western Europe and the US: Tolstoj is the Russian way while elsewhere you will see Tolstoy. (If somebody wonders why there are two `i' at the end of my name, here's your hint.) From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:31:56 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:31:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16973 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:22:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA01235 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:07:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01231 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:07:54 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27777>; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:59:58 +0900 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:06:33 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct6.205958jst.27777@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA CC: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit References: Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a5e34d17d85fcdc78f7edd7a3baf1c98 Status: RO Content-Length: 1924 Lines: 53 I changed the address of recipient. Feel free to forward it to anyone not on this list, François. Hello, people. François Pinard écrit: >It mostly depends if Japanese and Chinese teams feel comfortable, or not, I thank you for your thoughtfullness, on behalf of Japanese team. >with it. Unicode abolishes the distinction between numerous characters >which look similar to us Westerners, but which are written slightly You may think that using Unicode for CJK people is like ignoring the difference between O and Q, P and R, I, J and Y, U, V and W. THEI MAJ LOQK SIMILAP FQP REOPLE VHO NEWER HAUE SEEN ALRHABET. I hope you know what I mean. >differently, and pronounced totally differently. There is a war in that We are lucky that we don't have web user agents which can talk. :-) Before entering war, why don't we list up the following? * the purpose of avoiding transcription (or transliteration) * the advantage and disadvantage of using Latin-1, Unicode or ISO2022 Using UTF is useful for some purposes (such as writing French and Japanese at the same time), and is not for other purposes (such as writing Chinese and Japanese at the same time). Same is true for using many character sets by extending with ISO2022. There are areas suitable for ISO2022 and areas not suitable for ISO2022. And of cource, same is also true for using ISO8859-1 or ISO646. There's no silver bullet. So, what I want to suggest is to think about and to make clear what problem we want to solve. Why do we want to spell our name properly, how much can we pay for it, I mean, what will we lose when we spell our name properly, instead of using phonetic spelling? P.S. There is an international standard ISO3602 Romanization (one kind of transcription) of Japanese language. Is there any language which does not have standardized transcription nor transliteration? -- iida From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:34:50 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:34:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA10618 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 05:08:48 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id WAA21350 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:40:49 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from norad.dodds.net (IDENT:root@wilson-171-234.res.iastate.edu [129.186.171.234]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21347 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:40:49 -0400 Received: from localhost (vorlon@localhost) by norad.dodds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11845 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:40:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:40:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Langasek To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: <99Oct6.205958jst.27777@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: e1bb39106597ffd797e908136491d636 Status: RO Content-Length: 970 Lines: 27 On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, IIDA Yosiaki wrote: > So, what I want to suggest is to think about and to make > clear what problem we want to solve. Why do we want to > spell our name properly, how much can we pay for it, I mean, > what will we lose when we spell our name properly, instead > of using phonetic spelling? > There is an international standard ISO3602 Romanization (one > kind of transcription) of Japanese language. Is there any > language which does not have standardized transcription > nor transliteration? Languages which use the Latin2 charset can't be made to fit in Latin1, that I know of. Nor do most Latin1 languages fit in ASCII: aside from English, I think German is the only language that has a /standardized/ transcription into ASCII. The on-line communities that surround some other languages have adopted their own methods of communicating in 7-bit ASCII, but these are hacks, not standards. -Steve Langasek postmodern programmer From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:32:06 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18030 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:05:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id KAA07612 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:00:45 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailgw1.netvision.net.il (mailgw1.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.14]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07604; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:00:42 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by mailgw1.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11027; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:00:41 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13977; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:57:19 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:57:19 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: François Pinard cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: f1a8e9eccd76c71d0fce66c6c23a73d7 Status: RO Content-Length: 2678 Lines: 56 On 5 Oct 1999, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Pinard?= wrote: > > If the names in these files are going to be accessible to everyone, > > and not just to those who use specialized tools to read the file, then > > I think we're limited to Unicode for the time being. > > I would be much surprised if Unicode is readily available to all translators. Can we please back up a little and rethink this? If the original problem is to pay tribute to people by spelling correctly their names, then let's try to solve this without opening any Pandora boxes. Using any large character set encoding, be it Unicode or ISO 2022 *is* a giant Pandora box. The problem is that we will never be able to settle on a solution that will work with more than a single editor/browser out there. I18N is currently a mess precisely *because* interoperability sucks; if we want to put our money on the hope that using Unicode for some text will allow people to see that text with their editing/browsing tools, we will either lose, at least for the next few years, or end up forcing some specific toolset on people. Besides, what will it help to someone in, say, Poland to see my name displayed with Hebrew letters, if they cannot even read Hebrew? I want people to know how to refer to my name, both in written messages and when (and if) we meet in person. It doesn't help me to see my name in all its Biblical glory if 99% percent of you out there don't know how to pronounce it! It is true that for many Latin-N characters, most people know how to pronounce them. But even in Latin-N domain there are letters which, for me at least, are as unreadable as Chinese or Japanese (I don't speak either of these two languages). How would it help me to see these letters displayed? So I submit to you that, for the problem at hand, encoding the names in some universal way is *not* the solution. It is part of the problem. The only outcome will be to spark a debate about what editor implements I18N better, and which ones screw up. Down that way lies madness; let's not go there! Instead, did anyone consider to settle on a transcription scheme that would allow to write all names in 7-bit ASCII? If the goal is to let the names be properly read and pronounced by anyone, isn't this a better solution? I wouldn't be surprised if some international standards on transcription already exist (perhaps even several ones which contradict each other ;-), so we might not even need to invent it. But even if not, it is much easier to settle on some transcription scheme than to settle on character sets and encoding methods. (If I completely miss some point due my dumbness, I apologize in advance.) From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:33:39 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:33:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA16910 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:06:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id RAA06094 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:04:25 -0400 Received: from uddeborg.pp.se (IDENT:root@d212-151-103-114.swipnet.se [212.151.103.114]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06091 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:04:20 -0400 Received: (from göran@localhost) by uddeborg.pp.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03405; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:03:21 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:03:21 +0200 Message-Id: <199910062103.XAA03405@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Authentication-Warning: uebn.uddeborg.pp.se: göran set sender to göran@uddeborg.pp.se using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 20.3.1 X-URL: http://www.uddeborg.pp.se/g%F6ran/ From: Göran Uddeborg Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by correo.ctv.es id XAA16910 X-UIDL: d153f7941b3f14f317b36e96c527250f Status: RO Content-Length: 2534 Lines: 52 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > It is true that for many Latin-N characters, most people know how to > pronounce them. But even in Latin-N domain there are letters which, > for me at least, are as unreadable as Chinese or Japanese (I don't > speak either of these two languages). How would it help me to see > these letters displayed? I haven't realised it before, but probably there is a difference between languages using completely different scripts, and languages using a slightly different set of latin characters. A name in Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, etc. would indeed just be a "picture" to me. And probably not something I could remember easily. But at the same time I do find it silly that I have to write my own name without all the characters used in Sweden. (The second character of my first name is "ö", o-diaeresis.) It is perfectly fine with me that anybody who don't know Swedish ignores the two dots over the "o". But those who do know Swedish should be able to know my name. Maybe François has similar feelings over the little hook under the "c" in his name? > I wouldn't be surprised if some international standards on > transcription already exist According to a reputable Swedish encyclopedia, there isn't. And that is natural, since it is (target) language dependent. To take an example from a different letter, in Swedish we use the transcription Tolstoj, not the English Tolstoy. Which makes sense; in Swedish "j" is pronounced approximately the same way "y" is pronounced in English. And at least in Sweden, names written in *a* latin alphabet are not transliterated, even if it contains individual characters not present in Swedish. As far as I am aware, there is no standard transliteration of Swedish into the English version of the latin alphabet. I do agree that we should not let some solution to this become a problem in itself. The inability of properly writing my name in some contexts where computers are involved does annoy me. But I have lived with it for as long as I have lived with computers, and I expect to live for quite some time more. > AFAIK, the Russian way of transcribing > differs from what is accepted in Western Europe and the US: Tolstoj is > the Russian way while elsewhere you will see Tolstoy. I'm not sure if you count Sweden to western Europe or not, but if you do, then the "elsewhere" isn't true here at least. And I wouldn't be surprised if more languages have transcriptions different from English. What do you do in German, French, Castillano, Italian...? From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:34:57 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:34:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA07793 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:13:26 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id FAA03026 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 05:02:56 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from namec.okb.lv (namec.okb.lv [195.114.34.132]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA03023 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 05:02:52 -0400 Received: by namec.okb.lv (Smail-3) via sendmail with stdio id for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:03:25 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:03:25 +0200 From: Ilya Ketris Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Message-ID: <19991007120324.A16579@okb.lv> References: <199910062103.XAA03405@uddeborg.pp.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199910062103.XAA03405@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Subliminal-Message: ïÎ ÚÁÐÌÁËÁÌ É ÂÒÏÓÉÌÓÑ × ÍÏÒÅ Ó ÐÒÉÌÅÇÁÀÝÉÈ Ë ËÌÁÄÂÉÝÕ ÓËÁÌ Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 934b6f99ba85029c038e0caa82c0f39f Status: RO Content-Length: 2121 Lines: 49 On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:03:21PM +0200, G?ran Uddeborg wrote: > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > It is true that for many Latin-N characters, most people know how to > > pronounce them. But even in Latin-N domain there are letters which, > > for me at least, are as unreadable as Chinese or Japanese (I don't > > speak either of these two languages). How would it help me to see > > these letters displayed? > > I haven't realised it before, but probably there is a difference > between languages using completely different scripts, and languages > using a slightly different set of latin characters. > > A name in Hebrew, Arabic, Chinese, etc. would indeed just be a > "picture" to me. And probably not something I could remember easily. > > But at the same time I do find it silly that I have to write my own > name without all the characters used in Sweden. (The second character > of my first name is "?", o-diaeresis.) It is perfectly fine with me > that anybody who don't know Swedish ignores the two dots over the > "o". But those who do know Swedish should be able to know my name. > Maybe Fran?ois has similar feelings over the little hook under the "c" > in his name? > I think it's a Latin1 chauvinism;) A non-ASCII character is not always a combination of latin letter (o) and appendix (umlaut) that can be ignored. How would you approximate "thorn", "eng", or "kra"? Certain scripts using Latin2, Latin4 and so on may as well look "pictures" to many. Dropping umlaut from "o umlaut" may be ok, but do many people know what "thorn" or "eng" sound like? What would be proper ASCII substitute for those? In German, Swedish and even French diacritics are sporadic and may even be dropped without severe impairment on the text, but I am aware of languages when six accented characters in an eight- character word is rather a rule. What about latin-based Vietnamese script with so many characters that it doesn't fit into ISO model anyway? I would think twice before substituting Vietnamese "latin letter a with circumflex and tilde" with just "a" ;) -- Ilya Ketris From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:35:02 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:35:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA24697 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:25:24 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id GAA05414 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 06:23:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from alpha.netvision.net.il (alpha.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.13]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA05411 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 06:23:07 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by alpha.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA32492 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:23:04 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22349 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:20:11 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:20:11 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: <199910062103.XAA03405@uddeborg.pp.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by correo.ctv.es id MAA24697 X-UIDL: 0d9b85ee451d2525203922913df6d807 Status: RO Content-Length: 2196 Lines: 49 On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Uddeborg?= wrote: > I haven't realised it before, but probably there is a difference > between languages using completely different scripts, and languages > using a slightly different set of latin characters. This difference exists, but IMHO it is not important enough to consider in the present context. Also, ISO 8859-1 is very widely used, so many people know most or all of it, but try 8859-2 or 8859-4, and I think you will see that the degree of familiarity deteriorates rather quickly. Many of them are just as incomprehensible for me as the Hebrew letters are for you. > But at the same time I do find it silly that I have to write my own > name without all the characters used in Sweden. (The second character > of my first name is "ö", o-diaeresis.) It is perfectly fine with me > that anybody who don't know Swedish ignores the two dots over the > "o". But those who do know Swedish should be able to know my name. > > Maybe François has similar feelings over the little hook under the "c" > in his name? We all have feelings about our names. That's why this issue is sensitive and delicate. But if we want everybody to be able to recognize everyone else's name, I think there's no other way but to give up some of the precision (which is only possible by spelling the name in its native script). Using a Latin alphabet for transcribing is already a significant concession on the part of those whose native script is not Latin. I would respectfully request those whose native script *is* Latin to yield some of it so that we could have a workable solution where nobody feels hurt too much. I, for one, don't know diddley-squat how to pronounce ö in Swedish, but I'd probably be closer to the original if I see oe instead, than I am now with ö or with just o. > > I wouldn't be surprised if some international standards on > > transcription already exist > > According to a reputable Swedish encyclopedia, there isn't. Then let's invent one. Since this is for TP only, we don't even have to insist on a single transcription for some characters. We could have both Tolstoj and Tolstoy as valid transcriptions, for example. From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:36:55 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:36:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10252 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:06:46 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA13430 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:02:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13427 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:02:24 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27778>; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:55:50 +0900 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:00:57 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct8.205550jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: eliz@is.elta.co.il CC: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ec6f83ee1ad1fe082d4aa62b76b07bf5 Status: RO Content-Length: 588 Lines: 16 Eli Zaretskii writes: >to insist on a single transcription for some characters. We could I do understand transcription for sounds and transliteration for characters. But I don't understand transcription for characters. My name IIDA Yosiaki is one of transliteration for Japanese characters. I, DA, Yo, si, a, ki correspond to some Japanese characters. For people who read English may read IIDA like ``eye DAH'' and write my name like EE DAH YOH SHI AH KEY. It is an example of transcription of the sound of my name. Are these usages correct? -- iida From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:37:39 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:37:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA10442 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:47:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id QAA11965 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:45:26 -0400 Received: from uddeborg.pp.se (IDENT:root@d212-151-61-101.swipnet.se [212.151.61.101]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11959 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:45:19 -0400 Received: (from göran@localhost) by uddeborg.pp.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10045; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:38:27 +0200 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:38:27 +0200 Message-Id: <199910082038.WAA10045@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Authentication-Warning: uebn.uddeborg.pp.se: göran set sender to göran@uddeborg.pp.se using -f From: "Göran Uddeborg" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Eli Zaretskii Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: References: <199910062103.XAA03405@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 20.3.1 X-URL: http://www.uddeborg.pp.se/g%F6ran/ Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: f81b7cb2df10c8046999606157ea711c Status: RO Content-Length: 1666 Lines: 34 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We all have feelings about our names. That's why this issue is > sensitive and delicate. ... > Using a Latin alphabet for transcribing is already a significant > concession on the part of those whose native script is not Latin. I > would respectfully request those whose native script *is* Latin to > yield some of it so that we could have a workable solution where > nobody feels hurt too much. I didn't mean to be stubborn or chauvinistic. I apologize if my message was understood in that way. Let me try again to express what I wanted to say. If somebody who knows Hebrew reads "Eli Zaretskii", it must be pretty obvious to him/her that it is transliterated. Maybe he/she can also deduce how your name actually is spelt, I don't know. But there is no such thing as an proper transliteration of Swedish into ASCII. If I try to write my name using ASCII, it doesn't get transliterated, it gets misspelt. Somebody who knows Swedish could assume it was indeed the way my name should be spelt. It is that situation i don't like. I assume that it is similar for other languages written in som Latin alphabet, but not in just ASCII. Using non-alphabetic, transliterations would be possible of course. If my name was written as G\"oran, it would be obvious also to Swedes that it was indeed transliterated. And if they knew TeX, (or had some imagination :-) they would also know my proper name. It's OK if you want to transliterate or encode my name in some way. You may transliterate it into some non-latin alphabet. You may write it with IPA. You can encode it with a serial number. But please, I just don't want it misspelt. From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:35:26 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:35:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA24039 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:19:58 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id LAA20337 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:15:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailout2.nyroc.rr.com (mailout2-1.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.165]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20331 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:15:22 -0400 Received: from Default ([24.95.197.169]) by mailout2.nyroc.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:08:04 -0400 Message-ID: <002b01bf10d7$7965f000$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> From: "Dale Gulledge" To: "Eli Zaretskii" , "Translation Project" Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:20:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: f41023da1ca616ef9e0eadca95c0524e Status: RO Content-Length: 5713 Lines: 109 On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Uddeborg?= wrote: > Also, ISO 8859-1 is very widely used, so many people know most or all > of it, but try 8859-2 or 8859-4, and I think you will see that the > degree of familiarity deteriorates rather quickly. Many of them are > just as incomprehensible for me as the Hebrew letters are for you. This is probably true for most of the ISO 8859 family except 8859-1. > > But at the same time I do find it silly that I have to write my own > > name without all the characters used in Sweden. (The second character > > of my first name is "ö", o-diaeresis.) It is perfectly fine with me > > that anybody who don't know Swedish ignores the two dots over the > > "o". But those who do know Swedish should be able to know my name. > > > > Maybe François has similar feelings over the little hook under the "c" > > in his name? > > We all have feelings about our names. That's why this issue is > sensitive and delicate. > > But if we want everybody to be able to recognize everyone else's name, > I think there's no other way but to give up some of the precision > (which is only possible by spelling the name in its native script). > > Using a Latin alphabet for transcribing is already a significant > concession on the part of those whose native script is not Latin. I > would respectfully request those whose native script *is* Latin to > yield some of it so that we could have a workable solution where > nobody feels hurt too much. > > I, for one, don't know diddley-squat how to pronounce ö in Swedish, > but I'd probably be closer to the original if I see oe instead, than I > am now with ö or with just o. > > > > I wouldn't be surprised if some international standards on > > > transcription already exist > > > > According to a reputable Swedish encyclopedia, there isn't. > > Then let's invent one. Since this is for TP only, we don't even have > to insist on a single transcription for some characters. We could > have both Tolstoj and Tolstoy as valid transcriptions, for example. I have been following this discussion in part because it could become more relevant to my own team at any time as we take on new members. Since the To: line no longer announces it, I'll take the trouble to introduce myself. I'm Dale Gulledge, team leader of the Esperanto translation team. At the moment, everyone on my team has a name that can either be represented in ISO 8859-1 or for which there is a widely recognized transcription. And for reasons that I will make clear, we are used to seeing our names transcribed. Fortunately, the characters used are also available in 8859-3, which is one of the few character sets that contains the Esperanto letters. The only other one I am aware of is Unicode. Many of you are probably aware of some of this, so I won't give a long history, but I will explain how Esperantists have been facing this problem and why. First of all, Esperanto is an artificial language created a little over a century ago. It has no native country and is spoken throughout the world. Esperantists come from a huge number of native languages. Needless to say, the Esperanto alphabet is insufficient to represent their names as they spell them. In fact, I don't believe there is any other language whose alphabet is a subset of the Esperanto alphabet. Even English loses some letters in the translation (Q, W, X and Y). Nonetheless, Esperantists are a particularly talkative group. We've all learned a second language in order to communicate with other people around the world. And yet in a hundred years of trying, we haven't settled on a single solution to this problem. The commonly used solutions are: 1) Spell it the way you do natively and be prepared for the fact that it will give some people trouble pronouncing it, spelling it, or both. I use Dale in Esperanto settings at times, generally among Esperantists who would need to find my name spelled in English later, such as in a phonebook. 2) Use an Esperanto translation if there is a common one. While Dale is not a particularly common name. There is an Esperanto translation of "dale", which is "valo". I don't use Valo, because I wouldn't recognize my name starting with a significantly different sound. 3) Transcribe your name if possible. In my case, that is easy. I frequently use Dejl or Dejlo. I'm lucky, Dejl is a nearly perfect transcription of the sound of my name. Unfortunately, I haven't found an acceptable one for Gulledge. Galeg^ is close. But there is a fourth solution that is also used that might be appropriate here: 4) Spell your name correctly in your own native language, and provide a transcription. The difference between doing that in an Esperanto setting and the current situation is that in the former case, there is only a single target language to transcribe it into. We are talking about making names accessable to people around the world, who between them may not share any single common language. There are two possible alternatives. We could pick a language, say English, to do the transcription into. That seems chauvanistic. Or we could do the transcriptions into the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA). The IPA is not a perfect solution, but it reduces the bias. It would require that the encoding we choose must represent the IPA too. None of this solves the pressing issue of what encoding to use for all of the names. But it may help us to clarify our goals in accomplishing a solution. We all like to see our names spelled correctly and hear them pronounced correctly. Perhaps the combination of native spelling and a transcription to ease pronunciation would help. - Dale Gulledge (Dejl Galeg^) From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:36:52 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:36:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA22773 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:40:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id HAA12673 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:38:29 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12670 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:38:28 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27778>; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:31:48 +0900 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:36:54 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct8.203148jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: dsplat@rochester.rr.com CC: eliz@is.elta.co.il, team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: <002b01bf10d7$7965f000$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 56966dbe3d8be80edab1a90fdd847b5a Status: RO Content-Length: 270 Lines: 7 "Dale Gulledge" writes: >language. There are two possible alternatives. We could pick a language, >say English, to do the transcription into. That seems chauvanistic. Or we You mean Latin Alphabet script, not English language. -- iida From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:36:54 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:36:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10071 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:06:28 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA13717 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:05:36 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailout2.nyroc.rr.com (mailout2-0.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.121]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13714 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:05:35 -0400 Received: from Default ([24.95.197.169]) by mailout2.nyroc.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:58:29 -0400 Message-ID: <002c01bf1186$2968ff20$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> From: "Dale Gulledge" To: "IIDA Yosiaki" Cc: , Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:10:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7b9590fedc8c90d264b5680e18c58411 Status: RO Content-Length: 525 Lines: 16 >"Dale Gulledge" writes: >>language. There are two possible alternatives. We could pick a language, >>say English, to do the transcription into. That seems chauvanistic. Or we > > You mean Latin Alphabet script, not English language. Actually, I did mean a language. As someone else pointed out a couple of days ago, transliteration is specific to the target language. The idea is to give some idea of the pronunciation. Regardless of that, I wasn't advocating that alternative. - Dale From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:32:19 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:32:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28075 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:20:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id KAA08770 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:18:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08766 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:18:00 -0400 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA08850 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:17:47 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id KAA23620 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:20:57 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01519; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:15:52 -0400 To: Translation Project Subject: Re: ko@li.org mailing list? X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 06 Oct 1999 10:16:57 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b4e44278275931e8a4d00d4347864f17 Status: RO Content-Length: 2533 Lines: 54 --=-=-= Let me forward this message to the gang, it is of general interest enough. Also, I'm unable to reach Denis Pershin for the Russian team, all mail gets rejected. It happens, from time to time, that I loose contact with a team leader, and I do not always know how to react in this case. Combined with the fact that I am cut from the whole Russian team also, it makes the situation a bit difficult :-). Usually, things get back on track because people re-establish contact from their side, after a while. --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-From-Line: pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Sun Oct 06 10:09:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01471; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:08:47 -0400 Sender: pinard@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca To: Changwoo Ryu Cc: "Patrick D'Cruze" Subject: Re: ko@li.org mailing list? References: <87puysk4zc.fsf@dor17988.kaist.ac.kr> X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 06 Oct 1999 10:09:53 -0400 In-Reply-To: Changwoo Ryu's message of "06 Oct 1999 22:12:39 +0900" X-Gnus-Mail-Source: pop:pinard@icule.progiciels-bpi.ca Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: 57a597a700129744ac6c2f9dd3e8daf7 X-Content-Length: 567 Lines: 13 Xref: titan.progiciels-bpi.ca mail.classer:26056 Changwoo Ryu writes: > Sorry to bother you, but it seems that the mailing list of the Korean team > doesn't work. I'm very sorry if you are not responsible for the lists. > Do you know what happens? To whom could I contact when I met a mailing > list problem like this? You are the second, since yesterday, to report a problem with mailing lists at Linux International. Our contact, there, is Patrick D'Cruze . I'm Cc:ing him, hoping he is around to listen... -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=-- From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:32:32 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:32:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA11812 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:09:27 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id MAA19193 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:05:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19185 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:05:32 -0400 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA09994 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:05:19 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id MAA24381 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:08:29 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01945; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:03:23 -0400 To: Translation Project Subject: Out for a few days X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 06 Oct 1999 12:04:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2f5ded2d3f54ea3eb7cbcec1c778e8f9 Status: RO Content-Length: 1200 Lines: 22 OK, that's it: I will soon have to leave for town for the next few days. I'm a bit less comfortable to handle my mail while being there, so I _should_ normally be less responsive for the incoming days, would it only because of the pile of work surely waiting for me. Of course, it will be "urgent". All parts of the robot have been rewritten in Python and activated by now, the last piece of the puzzle snapped into its place yesterday evening. Looking at the logs this morning, I see that there are still a few glitches that need correction, and I might give priority at solving these if I find some free time in the incoming days. In the unsorted incoming mail queues, here (I mean, only sorted by automatic split rules), there are 33 messages of administrative nature (usually from translators or from the FSF), and 343 messages related to submissions (usually from the robot, with some from translators, and a few from maintainers). I would like to empty these queues soon, too, if possible. In the already sorted folders, there are a lot of messages, as always... OK, more later. Keep happy! -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:34:13 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:34:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA10802 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 03:12:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id UAA17269 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:59:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17266 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:59:41 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA04055; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:59:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:59:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199910070059.UAA04055@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `textutils' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: bd132f46d148690ff5e2b7adfb002acc Status: RO Content-Length: 674 Lines: 16 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `textutils', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/textutils-2.0.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/textutils-2.0.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:34:43 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:34:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA04922 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 04:44:07 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id WAA20498 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:12:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20492 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:12:09 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA04359; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:12:08 -0400 To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New POT files X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 06 Oct 1999 22:12:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 3e66d9b3354e2ce14f7c5fc7315cbe11 Status: RO Content-Length: 658 Lines: 16 Hi, people. Just to tell you that the following POT files have been uploaded: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/hello-1.3.23.pot http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/hello-1.3.24.pot http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/grep-2.3.pot http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/grep-2.3f.pot http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/sh-utils-2.0.pot http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/textutils-2.0.pot I modified the robot so you will receive such notifications automatically from now on. In that way, I will never forget anymore to tell you! :-) -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:35:06 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:35:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05065 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:14:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id JAA12077 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:13:04 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12074 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:13:03 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA07296; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:13:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:13:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199910071313.JAA07296@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `texinfo' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 78f4596a5e8ee7960184a68ed70549c5 Status: RO Content-Length: 1114 Lines: 28 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `texinfo', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/texinfo-3.12q.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/texinfo-3.12q.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.cs.umb.edu/private/tex/texinfo-3.12q.tar.gz > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/texinfo-3.12q.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:35:10 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:35:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA10163 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:23:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id JAA12468 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:19:57 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12464 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:19:57 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA07461; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:19:56 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:19:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199910071319.JAA07461@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `texinfo' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a113f7d4c5b8c4d68b9862ccccb52506 Status: RO Content-Length: 1055 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `texinfo', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/texinfo-4.0.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/texinfo-4.0.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/texinfo/texinfo-4.0.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:35:19 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:35:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA07535 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:10:12 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id KAA15527 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:06:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15524 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:06:18 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA07737; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:06:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:06:17 -0400 Message-Id: <199910071406.KAA07737@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `lilypond' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 83b4dd16afa4ad61ad803ff53bee77c3 Status: RO Content-Length: 1076 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `lilypond', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/lilypond-1.2.3.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/lilypond-1.2.3.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/GNU/LilyPond/v1.2/lilypond-1.2.3.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:35:51 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:35:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA07175 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:29:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id OAA32471 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:25:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA32469 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:25:47 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA08566; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:25:47 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:25:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199910071825.OAA08566@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `lilypond' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: cf3bf9e74304cf5937e163a15d2f8a1f Status: RO Content-Length: 1079 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `lilypond', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/lilypond-1.2.12.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/lilypond-1.2.12.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/GNU/LilyPond/v1.2/lilypond-1.2.12.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:36:16 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:36:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA07810 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 01:11:37 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id TAA18787 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:07:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18784 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:07:46 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA11004; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:07:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:07:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199910072307.TAA11004@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `tar' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 505057a54e143f2b13bb14352ecf6d62 Status: RO Content-Length: 1049 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `tar', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/tar-1.13.12.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/tar-1.13.12.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/tar/tar-1.13.12.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:36:26 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:36:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA11975 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 02:48:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id UAA22599 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:44:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22596 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:44:27 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA11363; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:44:26 -0400 To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Our Project [was: problems with new Swedish PO file for `tar'] X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 07 Oct 1999 20:44:26 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: d61b78261bcb40e5b4fa07e35a50658c Status: RO Content-Length: 4412 Lines: 87 --=-=-= Hi, people. Let me forward this message to you all, and immediately bring your attention to the last paragraph. I always took this matter quite seriously, and it was fundamental in the orientation of the whole Translation Project. I also find it very, very important that maintainers and teams keep their responsibilities well separated, but also, of course, that they assume it. To tell all the truth, the FSF has never been so favourable to my notion of teams, they were more liking the idea of a few individual translators for each language. Maybe I slowly convinced them, over time, I do not know. Please keep the matter between us, at least for a little while. As I want to share the lead of the Translation Project with you all, I have to be ready to revise such fundamental choices with you, and stop imposing them as much as I did until now. I hope that I gave enough of a push to the Project so some general direction is safely set. But we might together decide to cautiously steer things, maybe :-). Even if some of you are pretty young in the Translation Project, there are a few people among us that built, with time, a deep grasp of what we are doing, and why we are doing it this way. That is, enough for me that have good confidence in the gang of all team leaders, gang which is acquiring structure. Moreover, I will surely have to leave, one of these days! :-) --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-From-Line: pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA Thu Oct 7 20:23:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21602 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:23:34 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA11281; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:23:22 -0400 Sender: pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA To: Paul Eggert Cc: Jan.Djarv@mbox200.swipnet.se Subject: Re: problems with new Swedish PO file for `tar' References: <199910072258.SAA10730@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> <199910072319.QAA04886@shade.twinsun.com> X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 07 Oct 1999 20:23:22 -0400 In-Reply-To: Paul Eggert's message of "Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:19:50 -0700 (PDT)" X-Gnus-Mail-Source: file:/mail/pinard/inbox Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 29 Xref: trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA mail.classer:17879 Paul Eggert écrit: > The POT-Creation-Date and PO-Revision date have gone backwards For the POT-Creation-Date, it might be "normal" if you compare 1.3.12 with the submitted 1.3.11. That depends how distributions are prepared. For the PO-Revision-Date, I agree that it should increase. I plan to add a check in the robot for that, before letting an submission go, to ensure that dates are a bit more meaningful. I noticed that some translators do not update these, while we need clues while comparing PO files. > and the msgid entries are obsolete. Do you mean that there are `msgid' texts in the PO file which are not in the corresponding POT file? Once again, be sure to check the 1.3.11 POT file, not the 1.3.12. While the Translation Project tries to screen out many kinds of errors -- and I'm interested that it becomes better at this over time --, the only real crucial thing is that it does not forward PO files that would break a distribution (like triggering indirect segmentation violations, say). I would prefer that maintainers do not refuse uploads without very, very serious reasons. The quality of translation files relies on national teams rather than maintainers, and we should not be sending contradictory messages about this, nor allowing ourselves to interfere in the process. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=-- From jtarrio Fri Oct 8 23:37:17 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:37:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA29175 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:51:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id LAA25786 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:49:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25784 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:49:16 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA16695; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:49:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:49:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199910081549.LAA16695@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `a2ps' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c4c46fbf9bee5e8229e2584381d1cdc0 Status: RO Content-Length: 1051 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `a2ps', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/a2ps-4.12c.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/a2ps-4.12c.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.enst.fr/pub/unix/a2ps/a2ps-4.12c.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Sun Oct 10 00:00:55 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:00:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10821 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:57:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA15154 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:43:10 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from kirk.linux.it (root@kirk.linux.it [151.99.137.10]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15150 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:43:08 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kirk.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id OAA30380 for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:37:11 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by giano.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Md) with UUCP id OAA16766 for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:36:21 +0200 Received: by wonderland.linux.it (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8C55B98A8; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:48:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:48:10 +0200 Cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Message-ID: <19991009124810.H1029@wonderland.linux.it> References: <99Oct6.205958jst.27777@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: From: "Marco d'Itri" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ef08695ef28e5db31f0390651474e48d Status: RO Content-Length: 437 Lines: 17 On Oct 07, Steve Langasek wrote: >that I know of. Nor do most Latin1 languages fit in ASCII: aside from >English, I think German is the only language that has a /standardized/ >transcription into ASCII. The on-line communities that surround some Italian is easy, it has mandatory accents only at the end of words and they can be rendered with vowel+accent: à -> a` è -> e` é -> e' and so on. -- ciao, Marco From jtarrio Sun Oct 10 00:00:56 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:00:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10822 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:57:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA15151 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:43:09 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from kirk.linux.it (root@kirk.linux.it [151.99.137.10]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15146 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:43:06 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kirk.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id OAA30379 for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:37:07 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by giano.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Md) with UUCP id OAA16767 for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:36:21 +0200 Received: by wonderland.linux.it (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 8430198A8; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:55:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:55:15 +0200 Cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Message-ID: <19991009125515.I1029@wonderland.linux.it> References: <199910062103.XAA03405@uddeborg.pp.se> <199910082038.WAA10045@uddeborg.pp.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910082038.WAA10045@uddeborg.pp.se> From: "Marco d'Itri" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 137d41d29afbe4952816787cf3a93f08 Status: RO Content-Length: 399 Lines: 11 On Oct 08, Göran Uddeborg <"göran"@uddeborg.pp.se> wrote: >Using non-alphabetic, transliterations would be possible of course. >If my name was written as G\"oran, it would be obvious also to Swedes >that it was indeed transliterated. And if they knew TeX, (or had some >imagination :-) they would also know my proper name. This is a good idea. Why don't we use TeX encoding? -- ciao, Marco From jtarrio Sun Oct 10 00:00:57 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:00:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10824 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:57:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA15158 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:43:12 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from kirk.linux.it (root@kirk.linux.it [151.99.137.10]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15155 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:43:10 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kirk.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id OAA30375 for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:36:48 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by giano.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Md) with UUCP id OAA16793 for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:39:11 +0200 Received: by wonderland.linux.it (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0D32698A8; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:24:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:24:25 +0200 Cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Message-ID: <19991009132424.J1029@wonderland.linux.it> References: <002b01bf10d7$7965f000$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> <99Oct8.203148jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <99Oct8.203148jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: "Marco d'Itri" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 266b435efa009fc8b06591e31c81bf71 Status: RO Content-Length: 724 Lines: 18 On Oct 08, IIDA Yosiaki wrote: >>language. There are two possible alternatives. We could pick a language, >>say English, to do the transcription into. That seems chauvanistic. Or we > You mean Latin Alphabet script, not English language. No, he really means english language. Many times latin characters have very different sounds in different languages. Your family name would be written "Eida" using italian rules. It's the issue in the double russian transcription someone cited: I understand at the beginning of the century the phonetic rules used for transcription of russian in the western word where those of french language, now another set of rules is more used. -- ciao, Marco From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:18:45 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:18:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA14904 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:00:43 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id GAA03061 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 06:58:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03058 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 06:58:45 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27778>; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:51:58 +0900 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:57:19 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct12.195158jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: <19991009125515.I1029@wonderland.linux.it> Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: <199910062103.XAA03405@uddeborg.pp.se> <199910082038.WAA10045@uddeborg.pp.se> Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ca0c600ddbab86f532f1cfdf60473a9b Status: RO Content-Length: 249 Lines: 8 "Marco d'Itri" writes: >This is a good idea. Why don't we use TeX encoding? You may also want to know about RFC1345. This encoding may be more attractive for people who use characters which TeX encoding does not cover. -- iida From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:18:59 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:18:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06065 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 13:28:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id HAA03947 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:27:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03944 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 07:27:31 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27778>; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:20:41 +0900 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:25:59 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct12.202041jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: <19991009132424.J1029@wonderland.linux.it> Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names References: <002b01bf10d7$7965f000$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> <99Oct8.203148jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> <19991009132424.J1029@wonderland.linux.it> Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 164a6352f6f77dfe22f65b06258184b3 Status: RO Content-Length: 1076 Lines: 25 "Marco d'Itri" writes: >>>say English, to do the transcription into. That seems chauvanistic. Or we >>You mean Latin Alphabet script, not English language. >No, he really means english language. >Many times latin characters have very different sounds in different >languages. Your family name would be written "Eida" using italian rules. Actually, it turned out that my name was not transcripted into English language, but into Italian language! Many people who speak English call me like familiar female name Ida, ``eye dah''. On the other hand, Marco told me that my transcription would be IIDA or IDA, for Italian. Ciao! It also should be noted that the letter S in Yosiaki sounds like S in "sure" or SH in "sheep", does not sound like S in "sea". So if I want to transcript my name to English, it would be EA DAH Yoh Shiah Key, or something like that. Those facts make me believe that there is a transcription which is a map from script to script, not to language. But I am not sure if it applies to all scripts (Or languages :-). -- iida From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:19:44 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:19:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA06818 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:33:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id LAA17143 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:31:25 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17137 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:31:25 -0400 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA21722 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:31:19 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id LAA09767 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:34:27 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01442; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 11:29:27 -0400 To: Translation Project Subject: The MIME-able robot not far from ready X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 11 Oct 1999 11:29:21 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 3155440e60028bb59a08e86894366e58 Status: RO Content-Length: 2038 Lines: 37 Hi, people. Adding MIME input to the robot meant a lot of overhaul, but it should not be too far from now. I'm at the debugging stage. I considered various MIME situations, hoping the PO file will usually be found within complex messages. The limit of one PO file per mail invoice will eventually be lifted, but at its start, the MIME-able robot will process only one. One thing I did not consider, and will probably not for a long while, is the reassembly of split invoices: PO files still have to fit in a single message. Other things I did not consider is receiving `shar' (`shar' output has been eliminated some while ago), HTML'ized PO files, and other strangeties. If I see that people attempt to use MIME entities to introduce `uuencode' or `hqx' as a transfer enconding, I'll modify the robot further to handle these. In non-MIME contexts, or within MIME parts having 7bit for a CTE, inserted `uuencode' (old and new) should continue to work. Compressed files may be sent in most contexts, the `.gz' suffix will trigger un-compression. The robot might be made to handle other compressors if there is demand. In many cases, the robot now better isolates out signatures or introductory remarks meant for a human, which the robot is unable to understand. Yet! :-) P.S. - I hope to jump back soon into our previous discussions. Email accumulates very fast, here, if I do anything else than handling it :-) P.P.S. - The robot backlog has been much reduced last week. I hope to give a push on `libc' (hi, Marco!) and `Lynx' soon; nothing much will remain after that. Oh, there are plenty of other things. I should revisit human (non-robot) pending correspondence for all teams and domains, but this is a recurrent duty, anyway. Ulrich wrote me he intends to revive `gettext' soon, and if I do not want to miss that train, I should dive in PO file format canonicalisation matters (Santiago should be especially interested), and also PO mode maintenance duties. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:21:13 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:21:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13142 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:01:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id PAA01910 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:59:30 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from lagrande.IRO.UMontreal.CA (lagrande.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.32]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01907 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:59:29 -0400 Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by lagrande.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA25494; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by rachael.franken.de via sendmail with stdio id for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:53:58 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built DST-Sep-8) Received: from chico.franken.de(193.175.24.33) via SMTP by rachael.franken.de, id smtpdAAAa02337; Tue Oct 12 20:53:49 1999 Received: by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) for pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA id m11b7zY-005CKwC; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:53:48 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by tux.gnu.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 0) id 5E4971C971; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:51:59 +0200 (CEST) To: François Pinard Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: The MIME-able robot not far from ready References: From: Karl Eichwalder Date: 12 Oct 1999 21:51:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: François Pinard's message of "11 Oct 1999 11:29:21 -0400" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b59a2d720fbd0816c492ae3a558ab92f Status: RO Content-Length: 1186 Lines: 32 François Pinard writes: Thanks for the status report; all sounds good. | P.S. - I hope to jump back soon into our previous discussions. | Email accumulates very fast, here, if I do anything else than | handling it :-) I guess, you know, the opposite is right ;-) Once stopping to handle will increase the amount for a short time, but only for a short time. Otherwise, mailing is like a "nuclear reaction". Another question: are there known problems at li.org at this moment? I'm not able to post to de@li.org; I tried it from different account -- but it always refuses to process my mail, saying relaying isn't allowed ;-( | Ulrich wrote me he intends to revive `gettext' soon, Great! | and if I do not want to miss that train, I should dive in PO file | format canonicalisation matters (Santiago should be especially | interested), and also PO mode maintenance duties. Yes, and don't forget to correct the name of ISO 639 (these are Language Codes -- as we all learnt the hard way) ;) -- work : ke@suse.de Karl Eichwalder private: ke@gnu.franken.de From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:21:18 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:21:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA05523 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:48:21 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id RAA09432 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:47:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09429 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:47:40 -0400 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25609; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:47:26 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id RAA12193; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 17:50:31 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02922; Mon, 11 Oct 1999 17:45:23 -0400 To: Karl Eichwalder Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: The MIME-able robot not far from ready References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 11 Oct 1999 17:45:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: Karl Eichwalder's message of "12 Oct 1999 21:51:59 +0200" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a0521c15263357d37fd73417b29d1947 Status: RO Content-Length: 2203 Lines: 44 Karl Eichwalder écrit: > Another question: are there known problems at li.org at this moment? > I'm not able to post to de@li.org; I tried it from different account -- > but it always refuses to process my mail, saying relaying isn't allowed > ;-( Yes, a few people reported that @li.org seem to be down, and more recently, that there are relaying problems. One team leader wrote me, recently, to tell he decided to establish a list with closer control, for his team. > | and if I do not want to miss that train, I should dive in PO file > | format canonicalisation matters (Santiago should be especially > | interested), and also PO mode maintenance duties. > Yes, and don't forget to correct the name of ISO 639 (these are Language > Codes -- as we all learnt the hard way) ;) I'm not sure of what you exactly mean, but I guess I will find out while visiting PO mode related email. I'll write to you again if the mystery does not disappear :-). P.S. - By the way, the MIME robot seems to work for me, now. Not fully clean, a bit kludgey here and there. I'll install it in a few minutes, most probably. Hmph! I develop at home using Python 1.5.2, but the robot will run in production on a machine having Python 1.5.1; I cannot easily change this. So, I wish I will not "introduce" too difficult Python bugs while moving it :-). The robot is still very Perlish, its origins show!, but it will get more Pytonish over time, and tidied along the way. I'm not much used to OO programming, so I'm irregular at it, but it has its elegances. For example, I made a `Part' class meant to represent a MIME part, instances a pointer to a temporary file holding the part, all decoded and uncompressed. The unpacker builds a list of such Parts. Removing a Part has the side effect of removing the temporary file. Python is very careful at destroying all variables when the program terminates, and this makes the Python robot more thorough than the Perl one at cleaning temporary files in all circumstances. It does it so well that I had to comment out the mechanism just for being able to debug the thing :-). -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:22:16 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:22:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA22334 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:10:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id XAA23962 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:09:38 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23955 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:09:37 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA25728; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:09:37 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:09:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199910130309.XAA25728@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `tar' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 302ce46774c9d07b05bf1d17313016dd Status: RO Content-Length: 1049 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `tar', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/tar-1.13.13.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/tar-1.13.13.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://alpha.gnu.org/gnu/tar/tar-1.13.13.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:22:21 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:22:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA28512 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:42:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id XAA25211 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:42:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25206 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:42:00 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA25952; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:41:57 -0400 To: Karl Eichwalder Cc: Translation Project Subject: Special comment canonicalisation References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 12 Oct 1999 23:41:57 -0400 In-Reply-To: François Pinard's message of "11 Oct 1999 17:45:15 -0400" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 236cde718dced1fe814753ba6d62e56c Status: RO Content-Length: 2108 Lines: 40 François Pinard écrit: > P.S. - By the way, the MIME robot seems to work for me, now. One step further. Now in production. We'll see what happens... :-) I got a new problem, this evening. A PO file was submitted with duplicate entries (identical msgid/msgstr contents), and the robot was not geared to detect it. But it does now. :-) Not much a problem with `msgfmt', which behaves properly, but `msgmerge' was getting pretty upset with this. If two entries have identical msgids and different msgstrs, the robot retains the first entry only. If mststrs are identical, then translator comments are concatenated, and so are source-quoted comments (#.) and references (#:). Flags (#,) are only concatenated if they are wholly different, but this is a kludge, as flags should be compared and merged individually. The above was merely a quick shot, but nevertheless, it raises a few questions about what is a canonical PO file. For example, should references be ideally refilled? Should we define a canonical order for flags? In fact, we would need some document describing very precisely how a file should be canonically presented. A lot of decisions have been taken about this, mainly by Ulrich and me, but never formally written. There are a few pending suggestions or needs to be addressed, and some floating areas. If someone was agressive enough to step forward to edit such a document, rather quickly, it would be welcome, as I'm rather short on time for all things I ought to do. The idea here is to formalise current choices and ideas, more than create new ideas or change everything. I mean that the energy would go into edition, not design -- as most of it is set in our minds already. _Then_ this document, representing the _current_ set of ideas, once written, should be put out for discussion among us, and Ulrich. Once a reasonable revision will stabilise, `gettext' and PO mode would then be modified to comply, and I would have to readjust all the current PO files in the central archives. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:22:39 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:22:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03893 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:49:30 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id FAA06833 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:48:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailgw1.netvision.net.il (mailgw1.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.14]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA06830 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:47:59 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by mailgw1.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22193 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:47:57 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16803 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:44:32 +0200 (IST) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:44:32 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: <99Oct12.195158jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5cbbc52aa2a82730fca8e98675a8af18 Status: RO Content-Length: 924 Lines: 22 On Tue, 12 Oct 1999, IIDA Yosiaki wrote: > >This is a good idea. Why don't we use TeX encoding? > > You may also want to know about RFC1345. These solutions are fine for writing the original spellings without the need to use anything but 7-bit ASCII. However, if you want other people, who don't know the language in which the name is spelled natively, to be able to spell it, it won't help. For example, "B+" is the RFC1345 symbol for the Hebrew letter BET, but I doubt if anybody who doesn't read Hebrew will know how to spell a name which contains that letter. Perhaps the solution to this dilemma is to use two spellings, like somebody else proposed: one in the native language (with some ASCII encoding, to avoid the mess of finding a coding system that is supported by many different editors), and the other phonetically transcribed to make it readable by someone who knows nothing but the 26 ASCII letters. From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:23:04 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:23:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA12686 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:51:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id KAA21748 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:49:33 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21745 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:49:32 -0400 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA02905 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:49:27 -0400 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id KAA17803 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:52:32 -0700 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01371 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:47:35 -0400 To: Translation Project Subject: Current PO file normalizer X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 13 Oct 1999 10:48:12 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 85341fc11716093b0bffab10a772f627 Status: RO Content-Length: 3124 Lines: 67 --=-=-= Hi, people. Just forwarding this message, which might interest other people in the gang, maybe... This would allow those who want to normalize PO files themselves. --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-From-Line: pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Sun Oct 13 09:32:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01016; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:32:21 -0400 Sender: pinard@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca To: Santiago Vila Cc: Paul Eggert Subject: Re: New PO file for `tar-1.13.7' References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 13 Oct 1999 09:32:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: Santiago Vila's message of "Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:43:39 +0200 (CET)" X-Gnus-Mail-Source: pop:pinard@icule.progiciels-bpi.ca Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: 10a1fd3b4a4b550fdddce2103dd293d5 X-Content-Length: 1467 Lines: 33 Xref: titan.progiciels-bpi.ca mail.classer:26252 Santiago Vila writes: > cat some-file.po some-other-file.po > sort-of-paxutils.po > [ Now edit sort-of-paxutils.po by hand and remove some duplicate entries ] > However, it required a great amount of tweaking before it worked. > I'm not sure whether it may be done in an automatic fashion. I just wrote the tool yesterday evening. The only thing that would require tweaking, in my opinion, is the PO file header entry, but this is kind of unavoidable, anyway. Maybe you met other problems I'm not aware of? > A msgmerge feature to merge two existing .po files would be nice here. > [ I have a fellow translator who recently asked me about this ]. I was thinking, this morning, if I should not turn the robot suite into a little package, that people could export it and install at their place. Until then, the easiest is to send me the two files your fellow translator wants to merge, and I'll return the result. Or else, if you are have Python handy and are ready to work a bit for it in the meantime, you could get: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/bin/po-normalize http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/lib/python/po.py and massage the `sys.path.insert' line at the beginning of `po-normalize'. I think it is sufficient to just remove it if you keep both files in the same directory. Then do something like: cat cpio.po tar.po | ./po-normalize > paxutils.po -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=-- From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:32:57 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:32:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA28527 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:21:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id MAA32501 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:16:18 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA32495 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:16:17 -0400 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29712; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:16:09 -0400 To: Translation Project Subject: [François Pinard ] Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 14 Oct 1999 12:15:34 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2809213fa3db2452a984fd7f64650221 Status: RO Content-Length: 4281 Lines: 76 --=-=-= Hi, my friends. I thought this reply might amuse (or sadden) you a bit :-). It is loosely related to a recent thread of ours. --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-From-Line: pinard@iro.umontreal.ca Sun Oct 13 10:37:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01228; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 10:37:17 -0400 Sender: pinard@titan.progiciels-bpi.ca To: Florian Weimer Cc: ding@gnus.org Subject: Re: Making message/rfc822 boundaries visible References: <877lks1qom.fsf@deneb.cygnus.argh.org> <87yad7ls79.fsf@deneb.cygnus.argh.org> X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 13 Oct 1999 10:37:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: Florian Weimer's message of "13 Oct 1999 07:56:10 +0200" X-Gnus-Mail-Source: pop:pinard@icule.progiciels-bpi.ca Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: 18426f7852dc69ff7124dd7b7b523de3 X-Content-Length: 2464 Lines: 43 Xref: titan.progiciels-bpi.ca gnus.all:15527 Florian Weimer écrit: > The main problem with Unicode was that in the official manual, only > Chinese glyphs were printed, which extremly annoyed some Japanese people > (who, on the other hand, are used to write short Chinese citations in > Japanese text using the Japanese glyphs ;). I'm surely not in a good position to argue in the place of Asian people, nor give too much interpretation to their position. On the other hand, if they tell me they are not satisfied with Unicode, it would be very pretentious from me (or from almost any Westerner, in fact) if I started arguing with them. They know a great deal better than I do what the matter is, and so, I'm willing to respect them. Unicode does not have much technical limitations, nowadays, to handle more than 16 bits per character. Yet, this was not the original plan, and it required some doing to get there. So, Asian reluctance to Unicode, which might have started technical, became to be more political over time, and solving the technical aspects do not fully repair the politics. Let's face it, Unicode lost its technical virginity for good since it was first laid out (sic). People still being much attracted by its "purity" might not be fully willing to implement all of it, and the simpler parts of Unicode are just not enough to fit all of the bill. This yields all sort of contractual lies: "See all that it will do for you!" to convince other to embark, followed by some more intimate "I'll do that part which interest me most, and postpone even thinking about the rest" that soon becomes a strong incentive to say "You are wrong in what you want", or even more astonishingly, one step further, "Forget it, this is not Unicode". Because of my `recode' little tool, it happens that I speak with many people about charsets. On the way, I clearly saw that may proponents of UTF-8 are fanatical enough, that I would myself be very frightening if I were Asian. Asian and me have this in common (:-), that we put our culture long before technical considerations. I'm far from knowing the story, but I guess that if Unicode listened better, things would be different today. Asian probably understood they will be better served by themselves, anyway. P.S. - Unicode is not a problem for the little me. French is well supported, out of the box. UTF-8 is very elegant, technically, I like it a lot. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=-- From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:34:01 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:34:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA06492 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:43:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id QAA16444 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:42:17 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16441 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:42:17 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA04036; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:42:16 -0400 To: Translation Project Subject: [Various] what's going on X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 14 Oct 1999 16:42:16 -0400 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2ca7b2bcff908e5822217113f02cbf63 Status: RO Content-Length: 15710 Lines: 314 --=-=-= Hi, people. Someone just taught me about a setup which parallels the Translation Project. If you are curious, here is the original mail, and the reply I wrote. Peaceful comments welcome! :-) --=-=-= Content-Type: message/rfc822; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu Oct 14 16:40:46 1999 From: Various Subject: what's going on Topics: Re: what's going on Re: what's going on ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:07:23 +0200 From: Pablo Saratxaga To: i18n@linuxi18n.org Cc: pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: what's going on Message-ID: <19991014190723.B21215@chanae.alphanet.ch> References: <19991014101019.B15012@chanae.alphanet.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kaixo! [I Cc: to Francois Pinard too; it would be easier I think. the project we talk about here is http://www.linuxi18n.org/ if you want to subscribe to the list it is called 'i18n' and managed by majordomo on linuxi18n.org ] On Thu, Oct 14, 1999 at 09:22:34AM -0500, Klaus Weide wrote: >>> http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/status.html > > This brings up a point I have been wanting to make for some time. > > [ I subscribed to the list after a pointer ot the project was on > lwn.net, some time ago, mostly out of curiosity - to see what > this new Linux i18n Project is about. ] > > To a large degree, it seems you are competing with an existing, and long > established, project. So far, I haven't been able to see why a completely > new "Linux i18n Project" is needed - aren't you doing just the same things > the Free Translation Project does? They already have infrastructure in > place, for some things you are just starting to think about. I wasn't aware of the existence of the Free Translation Project when I first started with this; there are however some differences I think; I feel the Free Translation Project is a bit too complicated for some people (that can be linked to the site being very GNU-centric, and the disclaimers needed to translate GNU programs), and hierarchised (you must have a team per language and contact the team leader). Files to be translated aren't seen on the web site (only links to the whole sources and to already translated ones (that may or may not be up to date). So what I wanted is to have it easier; to allow individual people to participate if they don't want to belong to a team; and facilitate the task of translating (the fiels to translate should be directly accessible trough the web pages). Also I don't want to limit it to only the *.po/*.pot files (even if currently it is the case) but have it open for other kind of translatable material. Nor to limit it to GNU or GPL programs, any free software project would be acceptable. Maybe we can merge the both projects; it would indeed be a nice thing. However the GNU disclaimers is something that would stop a lot of people to participate; I personally know that there are translations of GNU tools available that never get integrated into the sources because the translators don't want to deal with that bureaucratic aspect. Note that I understand and respect the reasons why the GNU requires it. But it would be a good thing imho to proxy people on this; allow them to just send translations without worying about that sort of things, and let the translation project be the one sending the disclaimers, when needed. > Why is a Linux specific project needed, Nor is it really Linux exclusive (even if the domain name tells it), most of the programs running on Linux run also on other OS; and OS specific programs for other OS that Linux could be acceptable too as long as they are free software. For the moment it is very Linux specific, but that could change. > There may be good answers, maybe you think the FT project > doesn't do its job, or is too slow, or your goals are in fact > different, or whatever - but this should be explained on the Web > page. So far it seems to me your are basically doing the same > thing, only perhaps with a focus on a different set of applications > (graphical desktop stuff, not text mode apps) No; I don't plan to focus on anything in particular; if I talk about Gnome and KDE is because those are, with the GNU programs, the only ones to have some infrastructure to help translations. My goal is to allow all other small projects to also have an infrastructure that helps translations, as good as the one for KDE (the best currently imho) or even better if possible. > and some linux-specific > binaries (the locale RPMs) thrown in. Those pages come from a previous work; and the reason they have been added here is mainly to show the languages that are supported by Linux (and for those not supported by the standard sources explanations and links to the needed material; the rpm are there for facility for people that can/want to use them). Linux is a bit special in that I know what to do to add support for a new 8bit locale. And I did anddoes that. I don't know how to do that for FreeBSD for example (I guess that the XFree86 changes are the same, and maybe the source format for libc locales too; but I'm not sure) But that is not actually the goal of the project; it is there to show what exists, to show which languages can have immediately translations; but the goal is on translating. Yes, I know, the domain name hasn't been very well choosen > In fact, there is no link to that other project on either the main > page or in the "Related Links" section. > Since you obviously have similar (if not identical) goals, that > looks nearly like an intentional omission. I'll add one. > Another point: so far what I see on the Web pages seems to be quite > Redhat/Mandrake-centric; or maybe, somewhat more general, limited > to distributions based on Redhat / using the RPM package format. The locales/ pages are inherited from a previous work, which was indeed rpm and Linux specific. I should change that as soon as I have time and create a page per language, with links to the sources (it is already done for all the languages not supported by default I think) There is also, Mandrake specific, the po files for the graphic installer; in fact I use them as I'm also in charge of coorinating its translation; so I can experiment with it and avoid any possible problem. That is I won't dare to experiment with other people's work. > But the fact that you don't even mention for which systems/distributions > those files might be suitable gives the impression that the Project > lives in a pure Redhat/Mandrake world... You are right; I'll put some words at the beginning of the page. > so it should not be called > the *Linux* i18n Project. > > Klaus - - Ki ça vos våye bén, Pablo Saratxaga http://www.ping.be/~pin19314/ PGP Key available, key ID: 0x8F0E4975 ------------------------------ Date: 14 Oct 1999 14:29:58 -0400 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Pinard?= To: Pablo Saratxaga Cc: i18n@linuxi18n.org Subject: Re: what's going on Message-ID: References: <19991014101019.B15012@chanae.alphanet.ch> <19991014180451.A19624@chanae.alphanet.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pablo Saratxaga writes: > I Cc: to Francois Pinard too; it would be easier I think. > 'echo subscribe i18n youremail | mail majordomo@linuxi18n.org' Yes, I'm all for clarity, and hopefully, easily speakable :-). I just subscribed, so to be a bit more aware of your project. Thanks for the recipe! > I wasn't aware of the existence of the Free Translation Project when I > first started with this; [...] I'll add one [link to that other project > on either the main > page or in the "Related > Links" section.] And I was not aware of yours. It really seems we do not speak enough between ourselves... I would happily add a link on my side as well, the next time in that area (being very busy on other things right now -- this chat is just a welcome rest). Be sure that my omission was surely not intentional. And also, that I'm not making a fuss about it, in either direction. > I feel the Free Translation Project is a bit too complicated for some > people (that can be linked to the site being very GNU-centric, and the > disclaimers needed to translate GNU programs), and hierarchised (you > must have a team per language and contact the team leader). Hmph! I'm sure we could easily drawn ourselves into an ugly point-by-point debate, here, and it would not be much fun (at least for me, as I'm a soft man) and not very productive either. Let me, nevertheless, share a few opinions with you. The Translation Project is not that GNU centric: it is meant for all free programs. However, it originated (that would be a long story) from GNU maintainers internationalising their own programs, and also the packages of other GNU friends. If the Translation Project is indeed mostly populated by GNU programs, this is more an historical accident than specific choice. In the Translation Project, package maintainers decide if they want disclaimers for translation files, or not. Yet, GNU maintainers do not have much of a choice on that, as the FSF refuses distributing PO files within packages if not properly disclaimed. If we want the collaboration of the FSF, which is a good thing to have, after all, if you ponder all issues, we need to inspire them confidence, and we play the disclaimer game quite strictly, as far as their own packages are concerned. We might alternatively consider distributing PO files outside packages instead of integrated in releases, in which case the disclaimer business might become very different. But so far, overall, it seems that people usually prefer integrated PO files. It is true that the Translation Project favours teams over loners. Soon in the early steps of the Project, we met situations in which maintainers had to arbitrate between competing translators. Who am I, as a maintainer, to decide that this translator writes better Swedish (say) than this other one? The only thing I could say is that one provides PO files faster, or is more sympathetic and friendly, or such things, but I'm nobody to judge the real linguistic value of a PO file. If you allow me a caricature, programmers or maintainers might care for the wrong reasons, but Swedish users might care for better ones, so the "power" should be given to them. We created teams so to bring all Swedish translators together, because only Swedish people might collectively judge the value of their own work. Doing so, we knew from the start it might create problems, because two people are more likely to clash than someone who speaks to nobody else. All teams might have internal difficulties at a time or another, and by learning how to solve these, it grows stronger and healthier usually. But when a Swedish (just an example) translator is unable to convince other Swedish people about his/her Swedish translation, the temptation exists to just short-circuit the Swedish team and establish a personal contract with the package maintainer. This is also tempting for maintainers to accept such contracts: they feel all warm and fuzzy inside, with all those people who participate more intimately with their own efforts. But the sad, pernicious effect is that it effectively defeats the purpose of teams, which is our main or only warrant for translations quality and stability. Moreover, for any serious translator, most problems are linguistic much more than computer-related. Computer-related problems have common solutions, most of the time, anyway. A few teams have an aboundance of resources. But still, translating resources are still scarse for most teams. So, by multiplying setups and dividing energies around packages (the most popular packages attract most of energies), I'm not sure we are really serving well, in the long run, the goal of obtaining that all of our software be internationalised, naturally and routinely. I strongly believe that allowing teams to become strong and healthy is our best best, even if admittedly, this route is a bit less fun for maintainers. Our experience so far, after many years by now, is that the team concept is quite workable. I think teams are worth our protection. > [...] I don't plan to focus on anything in particular; if I talk about > Gnome and KDE is because those are, with the GNU programs, the only > ones to have some infrastructure to help translations. Hopefully, the Translation Project already provides an infrastructure for many packages, so packages preferring their own setup are less frequent. That's probably the only reason. By the way, we too intend to tackle all aspects of translation, not only PO files, and not necessarily `gettext'. This is by a willingful choice that we decided to address PO files first, so to become stronger somewhere, before starting to scatter energies. And even with only PO files, it tooks years before we succeed in doing something that has a good chance to survive. Some teams decided to widen their views already, and tackle manuals, HOWTOs and other documents or aspects. But each team sets its priorities and methos. So far, we do not have a central setup or drive for these efforts. > Maybe we can merge the both projects; it would indeed be a nice thing. Be sure, quite sure, that I'm not at all starving for any kind of control or power. My initial goal, which did not change, is to do whatever it needs so to eventually have more French on my screen (this is my language), and if it means managing dozens of language with it, so be it. In any case, even when the languages are different, the overall goal is shared, there is some kind of beauty to see a commonality in all these divergences :-). So, regardless of which setup is used, I'm still happy if internationalisation makes progress. I've no doubt that you put a lot of energy in your project, and you might kindly recognise that I also put some energy in the Translation Project, over the years. My only sadness is to see that works get duplicated, when we both know there is so much to do. This duplication is not economical. Some people would say that competition is a good source of motivation, but to tell the honest truth, that's not my bag. The team concept became very dear to my hearth over time, it might be the principal point where we would have serious difficulties if we attempt to merge our projects. But if this one is not going to be a problem, my feeling is that the rest should not be either. How to accomplish a merge without creating confusion might not be evident either, but I guess that if we just accept taking the time such things take, it could probably be worked out. I would not be opposed at all that we consider some plan of evolution, in which each of us steals the best of the other :-), and at the end of which our sites could be used as technical backups for one another. That would build more stability in the overall project. - - François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard ------------------------------ End of forward1989myL Digest **************************** --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard --=-=-=-- From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:34:17 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:34:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA00640 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:22:43 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id RAA18640 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:21:40 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18637 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:21:38 -0400 Received: by rachael.franken.de via sendmail with stdio id for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 22:21:26 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built DST-Sep-8) Received: from chico.franken.de(193.175.24.33) via SMTP by rachael.franken.de, id smtpdAAAa18132; Thu Oct 14 22:21:13 1999 Received: by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA id m11bsJD-005CNuC; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:21:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by tux.gnu.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 0) id 654B91C971; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:19:06 +0200 (CEST) To: Translation Project Subject: Re: [Various] what's going on References: From: Karl Eichwalder Date: 14 Oct 1999 23:19:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: François Pinard's message of "14 Oct 1999 16:42:16 -0400" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: aa817a9768b193e2fbc29f3b7cd2cfc3 Status: RO Content-Length: 860 Lines: 26 François Pinard writes: | Peaceful comments welcome! :-) Okay. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | | Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:07:23 +0200 | From: Pablo Saratxaga | To: i18n@linuxi18n.org | Cc: pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA | Subject: Re: what's going on | Message-ID: <19991014190723.B21215@chanae.alphanet.ch> | I wasn't aware of the existence of the Free Translation Project when | I first started with this; -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- cut here -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Isn't Pablo reading the GNOME i18n list where I talked about the Free Translation Project around August/September 1999? -- work : ke@suse.de Karl Eichwalder private: ke@gnu.franken.de From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:34:20 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:34:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA23647 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 00:00:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id RAA20956 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:59:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20951 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:59:12 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA04265; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:59:08 -0400 To: Karl Eichwalder , Translation Project Subject: Re: [Various] what's going on References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 14 Oct 1999 17:59:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: Karl Eichwalder's message of "14 Oct 1999 23:19:06 +0200" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2f376bbd897884464fd6604a38b3425e Status: RO Content-Length: 1016 Lines: 20 Karl Eichwalder écrit: > Isn't Pablo reading the GNOME i18n list where I talked about the Free > Translation Project around August/September 1999? I have absolutely no idea. I do not know when i18n@linuxi18n.org started, but I would presume it started before that date. He might not have been reading the Gnome list recently. And even then, sometimes, there are things people just do not notice, see, or remember. I do not know why, but something just does not click between Gnome and the Translation Project. I find them to be pretty unresponsive, and maybe they are saying the same thing from me... Who knows? They do not tell. Maybe I just never wrote to the correct guys? But you, Karl, Cc:ed me a few mails you sent to Gnome developers, that were fairly clear and unambiguous to my own eyes. I vaguely remember having added precisions after you did. My folders would tell me more precisely, hoping I kept these messages. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:34:45 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:34:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA28195 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 02:19:03 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id UAA27714 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 20:17:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from norad.dodds.net (IDENT:root@wilson-171-234.res.iastate.edu [129.186.171.234]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27706; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 20:17:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (vorlon@localhost) by norad.dodds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07822; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:17:25 -0500 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:17:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Langasek To: François Pinard cc: Translation Project Subject: linuxi18n, GNOME In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: eb3c2400e45c7a7f6cc336c3375fd966 Status: RO Content-Length: 2995 Lines: 63 On 14 Oct 1999, François Pinard wrote: > Karl Eichwalder écrit: > > Isn't Pablo reading the GNOME i18n list where I talked about the Free > > Translation Project around August/September 1999? > I have absolutely no idea. I do not know when i18n@linuxi18n.org started, > but I would presume it started before that date. He might not have been > reading the Gnome list recently. And even then, sometimes, there are > things people just do not notice, see, or remember. $ whois linuxi18n.org [rs.internic.net] ... Record last updated on 01-Oct-99. Record created on 02-Jul-99. ... So the domain's been there since July 1999. I think Saratxaga has been doing translation work longer than this, because I've seen his name a number of times in the past years. But then, maybe that was in connection with his other projects--I don't remember. :-) > I do not know why, but something just does not click between Gnome and > the Translation Project. I find them to be pretty unresponsive, and maybe > they are saying the same thing from me... Who knows? They do not tell. > Maybe I just never wrote to the correct guys? But you, Karl, Cc:ed me a few > mails you sent to Gnome developers, that were fairly clear and unambiguous > to my own eyes. I vaguely remember having added precisions after you did. > My folders would tell me more precisely, hoping I kept these messages. I personally think it's wonderful that other organizations are translating Linux, and I don't think linuxi18n and the GNU TP must merge. There's room for both. Of course, I /do/ think we should coordinate and collaborate. I think one possible reason why GNOME isn't receptive to the Translation Project is cultural differences (yes, a culture clash between members of an international community! :) My impression is that the GNU Translation Project is concerned about legal issues and formalities: it emphasizes disclaimers and proper channels of communication. This works for programs maintained by the FSF, but other Open Source projects are lenient about contributions; the idea of having people sign disclaimers is alien to them. I find that this is especially true among younger programmers, who are new to Open Source and more impatient about such things. :) Maybe there isn't really a culture gap between GNOME and the GNU TP, and maybe this isn't why they're unreceptive. But I know there are many maintainers and prospective translators who could benefit from a less bureaucratic approach. Please don't take offense at the choice of words, I don't know how else to explain myself. :) But this is why I don't mind seeing other translation groups: the GNU TP is valuable and important, but it is not perfect for all software projects. Oh -- GNOME was translated into Catalan before I even started pushing for a Catalan translation team. Perhaps the GNOME developers believe they can find enough translators on their own? -Steve Langasek postmodern programmer From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:35:47 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:35:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05302 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:19:17 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id DAA13606 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:55:25 -0400 Received: from sofus.novit.no (mailer-1.novit.no [194.143.58.67]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA13603 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 03:55:23 -0400 Received: from webshield2.novit.no (webshield2.novit.no [192.146.165.51]) by sofus.novit.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13041 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:54:51 +0200 Received: FROM tagseth-trd.consultit.no BY webshield2.novit.no ; Fri Oct 15 09:49:33 1999 +0200 Received: (from eivindt@localhost) by tagseth-trd.consultit.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21314; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:57:44 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: tagseth-trd.consultit.no: eivindt set sender to eivind.tagseth@consultit.no using -f Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:57:44 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth To: Steve Langasek Cc: François Pinard , Translation Project Subject: Re: linuxi18n, GNOME Message-ID: <19991015095744.K20786@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: e5cec4f53ea0dca581e5fb669059df71 Status: RO Content-Length: 1428 Lines: 29 * Steve Langasek (vorlon@dodds.net) [991015 09:02]: > Maybe there isn't really a culture gap between GNOME and the GNU TP, and > maybe this isn't why they're unreceptive. But I know there are many > maintainers and prospective translators who could benefit from a less > bureaucratic approach. Please don't take offense at the choice of > words, I don't know how else to explain myself. :) But this is why I > don't mind seeing other translation groups: the GNU TP is valuable and > important, but it is not perfect for all software projects. > > Oh -- GNOME was translated into Catalan before I even started pushing for > a Catalan translation team. Perhaps the GNOME developers believe they > can find enough translators on their own? Actually, most of the norwegian translations for Gnome has been through a review process on no@li.org, and such a review process is very often needed, both to correct errors, and to make sure that the same terminology is used throughout all/most norwegian translations. If the terminology diverges too much within different modules of Gnome, we end up with a poorly translated Gnome and confused users. It is not enough to find enough translators, in order to get good translations they also need a channel for cooperation and reviews. If the TP is too bureaucratic, I'm sure we could make it more flexible, and with the new web page, perhaps a bit more informative. Eivind From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:36:17 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:36:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA02719 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:42:34 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA23177 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:40:56 -0400 Received: from animaniacs.conectiva.com.br (animaniacs.conectiva.com.br [200.250.58.146]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23172 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:40:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (rodrigo@localhost) by animaniacs.conectiva.com.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11536 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:41:36 -0200 X-Authentication-Warning: animaniacs.conectiva.com.br: rodrigo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:41:36 -0200 (FNT) From: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes To: Translation Project Subject: The Disclaimer Witch Project Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a5740e120029e2e91d6475d994580476 Status: RO Content-Length: 470 Lines: 16 François, Don't you fell that the requirement to fill the disclaimer slow down the Translation Project? The gnome guys, the linuxi18n guys, all say the same thing: the TP has a lot of bureaucracy; the disclaimer is a pain in..., etc. why don't ask for the disclaimer only to gnu related packages? The TP-Robot only have to know these packages e reject gnu potfiles if the translator didn't sign the disclaimer. All the other packages could be accepted... rodrigo From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:36:22 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:36:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA02837 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:33:22 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id JAA25228 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:24:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from kirk.linux.it (root@kirk.linux.it [151.99.137.10]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25225 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:24:05 -0400 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kirk.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with UUCP id PAA27519; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:16:36 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by giano.linux.it (8.9.3/8.9.3/Md) with UUCP id PAA11119; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:16:51 +0200 Received: by wonderland.linux.it (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DAF619A19; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:19:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:19:23 +0200 To: i18n@linuxi18n.org Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: [Various] what's going on Message-ID: <19991014231923.A4395@wonderland.linux.it> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: From: "Marco d'Itri" Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: ec6df4102905565b60e826ac90f56a6f Status: RO Content-Length: 1755 Lines: 38 Pablo wrote: >(that can be linked to the site being very GNU-centric, and the disclaimers >needed to translate GNU programs), and hierarchised (you must have a team Disclaimers are only needed for GNU programs. >per language and contact the team leader). >Files to be translated aren't seen on the web site (only links to the whole >sources and to already translated ones (that may or may not be up to date). > >So what I wanted is to have it easier; to allow individual people to >participate if they don't want to belong to a team; and facilitate the >task of translating (the fiels to translate should be directly accessible >trough the web pages). Teams are needed for quality. I'm a translator since many years and leader of the italian team: in my experience translations made by random people and without strong peer review are usually shit. >Also I don't want to limit it to only the *.po/*.pot files (even if currently >it is the case) but have it open for other kind of translatable material. Please try to not piss off people causing splits or encouraging bad translations: italian translators are happily working with ILDP (the Italian LDP, for documentation) and the TP (for po files). And GNOME and many other programs not distributed by FSF are handled by the italian team of the TP. >Note that I understand and respect the reasons why the GNU requires it. >But it would be a good thing imho to proxy people on this; allow them to just >send translations without worying about that sort of things, and let the >translation project be the one sending the disclaimers, when needed. If you are willing to be sued if there are legal problems with the translators' work feel free to step forward. I'm not. -- ciao, Marco From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:36:24 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:36:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA03458 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:34:19 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id JAA25985 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:33:07 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25980 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:33:06 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA07884; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:32:53 -0400 To: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: The Disclaimer Witch Project References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 15 Oct 1999 09:32:53 -0400 In-Reply-To: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes's message of "Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:41:36 -0200 (FNT)" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a813a89493285a2b30b4777def5f003a Status: RO Content-Length: 1670 Lines: 36 Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes écrit: > Don't you fell that the requirement to fill the disclaimer slows down > the Translation Project? Yes. > The gnome guys, the linuxi18n guys, all say the same thing: the TP has a > lot of bureaucracy; the disclaimer is a pain in..., etc. What do they do for GNU packages? They ignore disclaimers? They play in the back of the FSF? Not a good way to keep their confidence and collaboration. I would easily agree that there are two bureaucratic aspects in the TP, so far that I can see. First is that maintainers work in teams -- yet each team its own rules and methods. Second is that PO files are thoroughly validated and normalised before they go. The first aspect is meant to ensure that no translating work gets duplicated or competing (it happened many times before), and that overall linguistic quality has some chance to improve. The second aspect is to ensure that we can sort out PO files (less easy than you think when they abound) and also that PO files do not break distributions or programs (so maintainers or users do not get angry against internationalisation -- this also happened). > why don't ask for the disclaimer only to gnu related packages? [...] > All the other packages could be accepted... This is exactly how it goes. We do not require disclaimers when maintainers don't. For GNU packages, maintainers usually do not have much of a choice, they ought to require them. We still "recommend" disclaimers (without forcing them) just so translators could have the later freedom to translate anything they feel like. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:36:50 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:36:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA25659 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:56:14 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id KAA31434 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:54:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA31427 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:54:31 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27780>; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:46:59 +0900 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:52:31 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct15.234659jst.27780@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA CC: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: Subject: Re: [Various] what's going on Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 574b4db2649ba2ba76010a1f628aaf09 Status: RO Content-Length: 410 Lines: 13 François Pinard écrit: >and the reply I wrote. Peaceful comments welcome! :-) ... > the project we talk about here is http://www.linuxi18n.org/ Have you seen the web page below? http://www.li18nux.org/ I found that the Japanese page was encoded in the Shift_JIS charset, which is the most powerless, unextensible one for internationalization purposes. Oh my gosh. -- iida From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:36:58 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:36:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26521 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:45:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id LAA02758 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:42:28 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02755 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:42:26 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27780>; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:35:27 +0900 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:40:56 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct16.003527jst.27780@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 2951ac64f1ab21b39d6c9962dc59966b Status: RO Content-Length: 847 Lines: 23 Some Japanese people put their name in both Japanese (by MIME encoded-word) and transcribed ASCII at the From, To, CC and/or other email headers, while most of them put it in only one notation. For example I can send like: From: IIDA Yosiaki/ =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCSFNFRDVBTy8bKEI=?= or From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCSFNFRDVBTy8bKEI=?= or just From: IIDA Yosiaki Eli Zaretskii writes: >Perhaps the solution to this dilemma is to use two spellings, like >somebody else proposed: one in the native language (with some ASCII >encoding, to avoid the mess of finding a coding system that is >supported by many different editors), and the other phonetically >transcribed to make it readable by someone who knows nothing but the >26 ASCII letters. -- iida From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:37:30 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:37:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA08248 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:35:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id QAA19722 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:32:57 -0400 Received: from uddeborg.pp.se (IDENT:gran@d212-151-99-208.swipnet.se [212.151.99.208]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19711; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 16:32:53 -0400 Received: (from göran@localhost) by uddeborg.pp.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02688; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:32:40 +0200 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:32:40 +0200 Message-Id: <199910152032.WAA02688@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Authentication-Warning: uebn.uddeborg.pp.se: göran set sender to göran@uddeborg.pp.se using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: François Pinard Cc: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes , Translation Project Subject: Re: The Disclaimer Witch Project In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 20.3.1 X-URL: http://www.uddeborg.pp.se/g%F6ran/ From: Göran Uddeborg Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b76e554ac392eb864d9a3ae47a01c9a8 Status: RO Content-Length: 778 Lines: 15 > > why don't ask for the disclaimer only to gnu related packages? [...] > > All the other packages could be accepted... > > This is exactly how it goes. We do not require disclaimers when maintainers > don't. I know that, but probably it could be more obvious on the web pages. The "Translator disclaimer" maybe should start with something: "For program packages maintained by the Free Software Foundation, a disclaimer is necessary before you can contribute a disclaimer." And in the table on "Textual Domains", you could have a column "disclaimer needed". Things like these would make it more clear that the disclaimer requirement is a property of the package, not of FTP (nice acronym that :-). And could reduce the risk of scaring people not wanting that burocracy. From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:37:34 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:37:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA25366 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:08:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id RAA21579 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:08:18 -0400 Received: from animaniacs.conectiva.com.br (animaniacs.conectiva.com.br [200.250.58.146]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21571; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:08:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (rodrigo@localhost) by animaniacs.conectiva.com.br (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19964; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:07:53 -0200 X-Authentication-Warning: animaniacs.conectiva.com.br: rodrigo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:07:53 -0200 (FNT) From: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes To: Göran Uddeborg cc: François Pinard , Translation Project Subject: Re: The Disclaimer Witch Project In-Reply-To: <199910152032.WAA02688@uddeborg.pp.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: c273e4e40ea14c728b9c45a4452c5d86 Status: RO Content-Length: 1200 Lines: 27 On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Göran Uddeborg wrote: > > > why don't ask for the disclaimer only to gnu related packages? [...] > > > All the other packages could be accepted... > > > > This is exactly how it goes. We do not require disclaimers when maintainers > > don't. > > I know that, but probably it could be more obvious on the web pages. > The "Translator disclaimer" maybe should start with something: "For > program packages maintained by the Free Software Foundation, a > disclaimer is necessary before you can contribute a disclaimer." And > in the table on "Textual Domains", you could have a column "disclaimer > needed". Yes, these suggestions make the things clear. I suggest also that we have two "Translators Table". One for the people that signed the disclaimer and _could_ translate GNU potfiles and another from people that translate other packages. What we have to clarify is how the people "get the ticket" to be in the second "Translators Table". I think that the coordinator from each National Team can handle that. The coordinator can send an email to François (or through an password protected page) asking to include "Regular Joe" to translate everyday potfiles. rodrigo From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:37:42 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:37:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA18294 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:52:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id RAA24070 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:50:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24066 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:49:59 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA10384; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:49:33 -0400 To: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes Cc: Göran Uddeborg , Translation Project Subject: Re: The Disclaimer Witch Project References: X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 15 Oct 1999 17:49:33 -0400 In-Reply-To: Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes's message of "Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:07:53 -0200 (FNT)" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 5dacfab5074c3684a51535e6f04e7354 Status: RO Content-Length: 1586 Lines: 34 Rodrigo Stulzer Lopes écrit: > I suggest also that we have two "Translators Table". One for the people > that signed the disclaimer and _could_ translate GNU potfiles and another > from people that translate other packages. If you mean logical tables, we have that already. Look at the list of translators for any team. There is a `Disclaimer' column, telling whether each translator is in the first or the second of this logical tables. Most translators have a check in the disclaimer column, but some do not. > What we have to clarify is [...] I'm busy right now, but when I'll have a rested mind, I'll reread the pages with the various comments from the TP leaders, and will try to make things more clear. I found them rather clear on all these points when I wrote them, but I do not exactly have an outsider view :-), so your comments are surely welcome. > I think that the coordinator from each National Team can handle > that. The coordinator can send an email to François (or through an > password protected page) asking to include "Regular Joe" to translate > everyday potfiles. Team leaders say who translate what on a per-domain basis. As for being restricted to non-FSF packages, or being free to translate anything, this is handled already through the notifications of disclaimer receipts which I receive from the FSF. These notifications are reflected in the registry, and soon after, in the Web pages. Am I replying to what you say, or am I wholly missing your point? :-) -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 01:50:00 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 01:50:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA02283 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 01:27:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id TAA28385 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:27:05 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from norad.dodds.net (IDENT:root@wilson-171-234.res.iastate.edu [129.186.171.234]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28378; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:27:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (vorlon@localhost) by norad.dodds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA30977; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:26:53 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:26:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Langasek To: Eivind Tagseth cc: François Pinard , Translation Project Subject: Re: linuxi18n, GNOME In-Reply-To: <19991015095744.K20786@tagseth-trd.consultit.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: cd338edcd7ccd0876ba2a3be815fc88b Status: RO Content-Length: 1710 Lines: 34 On Fri, 15 Oct 1999, Eivind Tagseth wrote: > Actually, most of the norwegian translations for Gnome has been through > a review process on no@li.org, and such a review process is very often > needed, both to correct errors, and to make sure that the same terminology > is used throughout all/most norwegian translations. If the terminology > diverges too much within different modules of Gnome, we end up with a > poorly translated Gnome and confused users. It is not enough to find > enough translators, in order to get good translations they also need > a channel for cooperation and reviews. I agree completely. Is it better, though, to have no translation, or to have a bad translation? Some may feel that it's better to translate GNOME into their own language immediately, and let corrections happen later. Peer review of translations is *very* important. However, if the TP project is to retain a role of leadership in translating free software, we must persuade others of this, and also make sure individual translators do not become frustrated with the process. :) > If the TP is too bureaucratic, I'm sure we could make it more flexible, > and with the new web page, perhaps a bit more informative. I don't think the TP is too bureaucratic, but I think it may *seem* to be bureaucratic. Perhaps changing the web page to be more inviting--and informative--will remedy this. And yes, flexibility is definitely important. So is responding quickly to the needs of both translators and package maintainers: patience is not a highly prized virtue in this community, and if we seem unresponsive, they will certainly do things their own way without us. :) -Steve Langasek postmodern programmer From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 00:24:39 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:24:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03254 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:26:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06744; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:26:58 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA29495; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:26:57 -0400 Sender: pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA To: "Juan Ignacio Nogueira Alonso (Manolo)" Cc: "Jacobo Tarrio for Galician team" Subject: Re: GNU in galician References: <3804AD2B.1421159A@helia.ait.uvigo.es> X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 13 Oct 1999 15:26:57 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Juan Ignacio Nogueira Alonso's message of "Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:02:52 +0200" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: 26317cefd9e8fb6983bda09b4a5510aa Status: RO Content-Length: 1249 Lines: 34 "Juan Ignacio Nogueira Alonso (Manolo)" writes: > I'm want to create a translation group to get GNU software (and docs) > in galician. Hi, Nacho. The Galician team exists, yet it is still a fairly young team, still waiting for its first productions. So I would guess they just need you! :-) Use to reach the team, or Jacobo Tarrio to reach the team coordinator. > Well, i don't have any information regerding GNU in galician neither > know were to find it. If you have easy Web access, you might take a look at: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/HTML/team-gl.html and proceeding from there, you will find more information on the whole Translation Project. > I meet people interested in this job, so i will apreciate if you send > me the information i'll need to get it work. (Is there some place to > find information about translation groups?) If you need more information on the Galician team, you might want to write to the team itself or to Jacobo. If about the Translation Project as a whole, you might write to Jacobo or me. Happy translating! -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 23:45:53 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:45:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA29957 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:46:15 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id AAA07964 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:45:15 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07957; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:45:13 -0400 Received: by rachael.franken.de via sendmail with stdio id for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 05:45:10 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built DST-Sep-8) Received: from chico.franken.de(193.175.24.33) via SMTP by rachael.franken.de, id smtpdAAAa26810; Sat Oct 16 05:45:02 1999 Received: by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) for pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA id m11cLiI-005CP7C; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:45:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by tux.gnu.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 0) id DA2F71C971; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:41:13 +0200 (CEST) To: Steve Langasek Cc: François Pinard , Translation Project Subject: Re: linuxi18n, GNOME References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Karl Eichwalder Date: 16 Oct 1999 06:41:13 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by correo.ctv.es id GAA29957 X-UIDL: a05d7b548dec57b1c0b79ba4cdea578d Status: RO Content-Length: 3058 Lines: 65 Steve Langasek writes: | So the domain's been there since July 1999. Point taken. | I think Saratxaga has been doing translation work longer than this, | because I've seen his name a number of times in the past years. That's why I can't believe that Pablo wasn't aware of the Free TP... | I personally think it's wonderful that other organizations are | translating Linux, and I don't think linuxi18n and the GNU TP must | merge. There's room for both. Of course, I /do/ think we should | coordinate and collaborate. Me, too. There are quite a lot nice people out there who want to translate something -- but not so many, who have the time and energy to work continiously on such a project. And much more "meta" work is to be done (I'm speaking for the german project at this moment): a compendium is needed and normalization of translations should take place. And it's not enough to do it -- you've to comunicate your ideas: that's one of the reasons why I think the approach is a good one to solve these problems via LL@li.org mailingslists (or equivalents). The disclaimer argument is bogus (see François' previous statement). | Maybe there isn't really a culture gap between GNOME and the GNU TP, | and maybe this isn't why they're unreceptive. But I know there are | many maintainers and prospective translators who could benefit from | a less bureaucratic approach. Yes, but the translators want more than just: "Here is the CVS, create you own POT file, update your PO file and please, try to submit it" ;) They want something like the TP. The TP -- as set up by François -- takes care about the fact that you shouldn't waste resources. | Please don't take offense at the choice of words, I don't know how | else to explain myself. :) But this is why I don't mind seeing other | translation groups: the GNU TP is valuable and important, but it is | not perfect for all software projects. What I hate is the approach: "Project X isn't perfect, let's start our own project" -- why don't people try to work together? They are not patient enough ;) All this hurry about GNOME does more harm than good. Of course, both parties have there rights: the conservatives and the rebels... | Oh -- GNOME was translated into Catalan before I even started | pushing for a Catalan translation team. Perhaps the GNOME | developers believe they can find enough translators on their own? I jumped in to complete the german translations of the stable branches (guided by mawa) -- but I'm a Free TP guy... Miguel seems open to adopt the structure of Fronçois' project robot. What I like to see is honestly and collaboration. What's not needed, is yet another i18n website. Better tools for translators are needed (vi macros to edit PO files, improvements of po-mode (add ediff, as proposed by François), make compendia available, etc.). -- work : ke@suse.de Karl Eichwalder private: ke@gnu.franken.de From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 23:45:54 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:45:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA00021 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:46:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id AAA07955 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:45:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07948; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 00:45:11 -0400 Received: by rachael.franken.de via sendmail with stdio id for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 05:45:09 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built DST-Sep-8) Received: from chico.franken.de(193.175.24.33) via SMTP by rachael.franken.de, id smtpdAAAa26809; Sat Oct 16 05:45:02 1999 Received: by chico.franken.de with UUCP (Smail3.2 #2) for pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA id m11cLiH-005CPJC; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:45:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by tux.gnu.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 0) id BE2471C971; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:32:45 +0200 (CEST) To: François Pinard Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: [Various] what's going on References: From: Karl Eichwalder Date: 16 Oct 1999 06:32:45 +0200 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: bb15e29afb4ff3dd3928e708e22a3e6e Status: RO Content-Length: 1910 Lines: 43 François Pinard writes: | I have absolutely no idea. I do not know when i18n@linuxi18n.org | started, but I would presume it started before that date. He might | not have been reading the Gnome list recently. And even then, | sometimes, there are things people just do not notice, see, or | remember. Admitted. For what's worth, on the regular GNOME list I also talked about the Free TP (months ago). And I'm not the only one, who mentions on GNOME lists the Free TP from time to time. Yes, these are high volume lists and we are all humans ;) | I do not know why, but something just does not click between Gnome | and the Translation Project. I find them to be pretty unresponsive, | and maybe they are saying the same thing from me... Who knows? | They do not tell. Maybe I just never wrote to the correct guys? I don't think so. By now, all parties are informed. Maybe, the concept of the Free TP does put too much burden on the shoulders of the maintainers? They have to submit POT files and to add done translations to the archive/CVS? | But you, Karl, Cc:ed me a few mails you sent to Gnome developers, | that were fairly clear and unambiguous to my own eyes. I vaguely | remember having added precisions after you did. Yes. Your mails were full of offerings and I'm wondering why Miguel didn't answer (maybe, he'll answer when he's back from his last travel). "Whatever you'll do, it's good." (source unknown). I just glanced at www.linuxi18n.org and have to say it looks useful (good short recipes, helpful links). po-mode.el is missing at http://www.linuxi18n.org/tools.var ;) But of course, there's no need to make it jet another repository of PO files. -- work : ke@suse.de Karl Eichwalder private: ke@gnu.franken.de From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 23:46:06 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:46:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13605 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:03:16 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id GAA17966 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:01:01 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from reality.multinet.no (IDENT:qmailr@reality.multinet.no [193.90.12.10]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA17929 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 06:00:59 -0400 Received: (qmail 2631 invoked by uid 509); 16 Oct 1999 10:00:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19991016120052.A1827@multinet.no> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:00:52 +0200 From: Eivind Tagseth To: Karl Eichwalder , François Pinard Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: [Various] what's going on References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Karl Eichwalder on Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 06:32:45AM +0200 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 50a25fecc2c5c40b4287fb2ebd34da9a Status: RO Content-Length: 466 Lines: 12 On Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 06:32:45AM +0200, Karl Eichwalder wrote: > I don't think so. By now, all parties are informed. Maybe, the concept > of the Free TP does put too much burden on the shoulders of the > maintainers? They have to submit POT files and to add done translations > to the archive/CVS? It shouldn't be impossible to have a/the TP robot watch some CVS repositories for changes in POT files, and make it commit new translations into CVS... Eivind From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 23:47:44 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:47:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA19420 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:00:47 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA23818 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:57:47 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailout1.nyroc.rr.com (mailout1-0.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23811; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:57:46 -0400 Received: from Default ([24.95.197.169]) by mailout1.nyroc.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:56:23 -0400 Message-ID: <005901bf17d6$d8fd91c0$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> From: "Dale Gulledge" To: "Team Leaders" , "François Pinard" Subject: Fw: provo Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 09:03:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 89681c481ebe0451c747ae3e24163854 Status: RO Content-Length: 466 Lines: 17 > ------ > List: Esperanto GNU/LI List > Sender: $OLDSENDER > Subject: $SUBJECT > Date: $DATE > ------ I thought I would let you know, the eo@li.org list is now working well enough that we can use it. As you can see above, there are still some problems with whatever script they are use at li.org to indicate the origin of the message. I would guess that the other lists that have been having problems are probably also fixed. - Dale From jtarrio Sat Oct 16 23:48:02 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:48:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03444 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:14:20 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id OAA02029 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:11:53 -0400 Received: from uddeborg.pp.se (IDENT:root@d212-151-46-53.swipnet.se [212.151.46.53]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02026 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:11:50 -0400 Received: (from göran@localhost) by uddeborg.pp.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04942; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:43:30 +0200 Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:43:30 +0200 Message-Id: <199910161743.TAA04942@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Authentication-Warning: uebn.uddeborg.pp.se: göran set sender to göran@uddeborg.pp.se using -f From: "Göran Uddeborg" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To: Translation Project Subject: Re: [Various] what's going on In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 20.3.1 X-URL: http://www.uddeborg.pp.se/g%F6ran/ Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by correo.ctv.es id UAA03444 X-UIDL: 6718267366a6a1b270e31f3474757116 Status: RO Content-Length: 354 Lines: 7 > I just glanced at www.linuxi18n.org and have to say it looks useful > (good short recipes, helpful links). po-mode.el is missing at > http://www.linuxi18n.org/tools.var ;) Maybe a good way to merge would be to let the linuxi18n people handle the web pages, and François the robot and po file administration? (And the disclaimers, where appropriate.) From jtarrio Sun Oct 17 18:06:47 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA25115 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:33:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA05416 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:31:24 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from alpha.netvision.net.il (alpha.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.13]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05413 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:31:21 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by alpha.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05666; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:31:19 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA25307; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:28:21 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 14:28:21 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: IIDA Yosiaki cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: <99Oct16.003527jst.27780@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 38e04c57de2c923af3fe05f7ee74d599 Status: RO Content-Length: 460 Lines: 15 On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, IIDA Yosiaki wrote: > Some Japanese people put their name in both Japanese (by > MIME encoded-word) and transcribed ASCII at the From, To, CC > and/or other email headers, while most of them put it in > only one notation. > > For example I can send like: > From: IIDA Yosiaki/ =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCSFNFRDVBTy8bKEI=?= > You mean, quoted-ASCII, right? Yes, this is one possibility to leave everybody happy. From jtarrio Sat Oct 23 00:42:35 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:42:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA19440 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:30:55 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id HAA21741 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:26:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21738 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:26:25 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27778>; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:19:18 +0900 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:24:58 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct18.201918jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b28699a8dab7473154962ce779d34558 Status: RO Content-Length: 560 Lines: 17 Eli Zaretskii writes: >You mean, quoted-ASCII, right? Sorry, but I'm not sure what quoted-ASCII really is. In an encoded-word, each alpha numeric ASCII character and some others represent itself. Some ASCII symbolic characters and all non-ASCII characters are quoted, so that they will fit into ASCII. You will find the definition of encoded-words in RFC2047: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2047.txt Enjoy! >Yes, this is one possibility to leave everybody happy. I'm happy to see that you agree with me, anyway :-). -- iida From jtarrio Sat Oct 23 00:42:37 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:42:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA28000 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:44:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id HAA22113 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:40:27 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from alpha.netvision.net.il (alpha.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.13]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22110 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 07:40:26 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by alpha.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10100 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:40:24 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04891 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:37:27 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:37:27 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: <99Oct18.201918jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a902caa44328b010093a08224b6cdbab Status: RO Content-Length: 232 Lines: 9 On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, IIDA Yosiaki wrote: > Eli Zaretskii writes: > >You mean, quoted-ASCII, right? > > Sorry, but I'm not sure what quoted-ASCII really is. I meant quoted-printable, sorry for the mistake. From jtarrio Sat Oct 23 00:52:43 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:52:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA27403 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:33:50 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id IAA24033 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:29:16 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from secom-sis.co.jp (spiral.secom-sis.co.jp [202.218.246.72]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24030 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:29:14 -0400 Received: by spiral.secom-sis.co.jp id <27778>; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:22:07 +0900 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:27:46 +0900 Message-Id: <99Oct18.212207jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> From: IIDA Yosiaki To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA In-reply-to: Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 14c82114fbb561d422d9282ed288bd26 Status: RO Content-Length: 784 Lines: 23 Eli Zaretskii writes: >I meant quoted-printable, sorry for the mistake. OK, no problem. In that case, the answer will be yes or no, depending on what kind of charsets are used for what kind of purposes. There are charsets, such as ISO-2022-JP, which use the same value as some ASCII special characters for (part of) non-ASCII character. For such charsets, base64 will be more useful than quoted-printable, or for some purposes, it is required. For example, with quoted-printable, my name IIDA will be: =?ISO-2022-JP?Q?=1B$B$$$$$@=1B(B?= and it cannot be used in email address. But we can use base64 like =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJCQkJCRAGyhC?= even in email address. We are going to use properly spelled name for email too, aren't we? -- iida From jtarrio Sat Oct 23 00:56:17 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:56:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA06730 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:35:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id JAA27188 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:31:35 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from alpha.netvision.net.il (alpha.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.13]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27180 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:31:33 -0400 Received: from is.elta.co.il (is.elta.co.il [199.203.121.2]) by alpha.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28989 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:31:20 +0200 (IST) Received: from is (is [199.203.121.2]) by is.elta.co.il (8.9.3/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA05325 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:28:22 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:28:22 +0200 (IST) From: Eli Zaretskii X-Sender: eliz@is To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: Proper spelling of names In-Reply-To: <99Oct18.212207jst.27778@spiral.secom-sis.co.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 342dde970911a8873bcae294b3cb67aa Status: RO Content-Length: 222 Lines: 8 On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, IIDA Yosiaki wrote: > We are going to use properly spelled name for email too, > aren't we? I certainly hope so. This is IMHO one of the reasons to have proper spelled names in the first place. From jtarrio Sat Oct 23 00:59:38 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:59:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA27954 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:59:06 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id OAA16431 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:55:23 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from smtpb.casema.net (smtpb.casema.net [195.96.96.35]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA16417 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:55:17 -0400 Received: (qmail 29508 invoked by uid 0); 18 Oct 1999 18:55:11 -0000 Received: from 12dyn220.delft.casema.net (HELO spark.icicle.dhs.org) (root@212.64.19.220) by smtpb.casema.net with SMTP; 18 Oct 1999 18:55:11 -0000 Received: by spark.icicle.dhs.org via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:55:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 20:55:10 +0200 From: Ivo Timmermans To: François Pinard Cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: TP-Robot m4-1.4n.nl.po Message-ID: <19991018205510.C1471@spark.icicle.dhs.org> Reply-To: zarq@iname.com References: <19991015133055.A3931@spark.icicle.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZmUaFz6apKcXQszQ" User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: a2b0053d84f02669feced91d96b6f09f Status: RO Content-Length: 666 Lines: 30 --ZmUaFz6apKcXQszQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi again, Following up to my own email, how tough would it be to let the robot check the PGP key before accepting a submission? (Just a random thought) --=20 Ivo Timmermans You are just jealous because the little voices are talking to me. --ZmUaFz6apKcXQszQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE4C20ObTEMl+oVcvERAtLiAKDckk+RiWYQmF90atLSgxsRm16fjgCgxEWE bJQHk8HsV4Ow6v5dpVBRxRc= =E3i3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZmUaFz6apKcXQszQ-- From jtarrio Sat Oct 23 01:18:40 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 01:18:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA16661 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 04:00:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id VAA05797 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05795 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:12 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA28989; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199910190159.VAA28989@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `parted' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 684d96ea85be82212fade29b8680bec6 Status: RO Content-Length: 1071 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `parted', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/parted-0.0.8-pre1.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/parted-0.0.8-pre1.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/parted/parted-0.0.8-pre1.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Sat Oct 23 01:28:26 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 01:28:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04053 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:33:57 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id HAA30459 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:30:32 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mailout1.nyroc.rr.com (mailout1-0.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA30456 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:30:31 -0400 Received: from Default ([24.95.197.169]) by mailout1.nyroc.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59787U250000L250000S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:29:07 -0400 Message-ID: <001501bf1bb8$881d0980$a9c55f18@Default.rochester.rr.com> From: "Dale Gulledge" To: Subject: Discussion of open source internationalization on Slashdot last week Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:36:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: d77e3e07e711396f1b47d0a0fa3e5ef5 Status: RO Content-Length: 312 Lines: 10 There was some discussion last Friday on Slashdot about the Li18nux project. Some of the comments were interesting. You may want to have a look: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/14/210211&mode=thread I mentioned the Translation Project so that anyone following the thread could find us. - Dale From jtarrio Sun Oct 24 01:17:21 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:17:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from orzan.fi.udc.es (orzan.fi.udc.es [193.144.60.19]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA25297 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 00:45:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ceu.fi.udc.es (ceu.fi.udc.es [193.144.60.100]) by orzan.fi.udc.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA00904; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:36:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by ceu.fi.udc.es (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id XAA18099 for gpul-traduccion-outgoing; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:35:59 +0200 Received: from orzan.fi.udc.es (orzan.fi.udc.es [193.144.60.19]) by ceu.fi.udc.es (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id XAA14201 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:34:33 +0200 Received: from maria.ctv.es (maria.ctv.es [212.25.129.25]) by orzan.fi.udc.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA00881 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:34:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from elvin.ddns.org ([62.36.118.151]) by maria.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04454 for ; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:31:00 +0100 (WET DST) Received: (from jtarrio@localhost) by elvin.ddns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id DAA00379 for gpul-traduccion@ceu.fi.udc.es; Sat, 23 Oct 1999 03:31:14 +0200 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 23 Oct 1999 01:18:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA16661 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 04:00:13 +0200 (MET DST) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) id VAA05797 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:13 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05795 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:12 -0400 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA28989; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:59:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199910190159.VAA28989@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `parted' Sender: owner-gpul-traduccion@ceu.fi.udc.es X-Loop: gpul-traduccion@ceu.fi.udc.es Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gpul-traduccion@ceu.fi.udc.es MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: 684d96ea85be82212fade29b8680bec6 Status: RO Content-Length: 1183 Lines: 30 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `parted', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/parted-0.0.8-pre1.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/parted-0.0.8-pre1.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/parted/parted-0.0.8-pre1.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca -- Para sair desta lista, manda un mail a gpul-traduccion-request@ceu.fi.udc.es poñendo "unsubscribe" na mesaxe From jtarrio Fri Nov 12 19:05:29 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:05:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA19625 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 04:17:45 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA25460 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:15:25 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (root@rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25457 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:15:24 -0500 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA06834 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:16:18 -0500 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id WAA01901 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:19:06 -0800 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBED309B; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:16:39 -0500 (EST) To: Translation Project Subject: Welcome tu the Bulgarian team X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 09 Nov 1999 22:16:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1ae7b46cab8bd8c5c8ac75564866c996 Status: RO Content-Length: 200 Lines: 6 Hi, people. I just wish to welcome the representative of the Bulgarian team: "Pavel Mihaylov for Bulgarian team" -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Nov 12 19:05:37 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:05:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA03612 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 05:13:20 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA26926 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:58:48 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (root@rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26923 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:58:47 -0500 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA07173 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:58:20 -0500 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id XAA02127 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:01:08 -0800 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746A2309B; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:58:39 -0500 (EST) To: Translation Project Subject: Moving registry control towards leaders X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 09 Nov 1999 22:58:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: d070289021a718d021148cd4f30b96c7 Status: RO Content-Length: 2705 Lines: 46 Hello, people. Very busy here. I do not find much time for volunteer work. You remember that the previous effort was to make the Robot able to grok MIME, and the feature is happily used, indeed, by some translators. The next urgent need, for the Translation Project, is moving the control of the TP registry towards national leaders, and also, project maintainers. I gave some thought about how it should work, at least initially, made a plan, and started to prepare things consequently. Many steps will be required. I will have to do only bits at a time, but we will get there. According to the current plan, I will continue to handle myself the creation of a new team or the addition of a new domain, and also, the notification of disclaimers coming from the FSF. But I think *all* the rest could be handled by maintainers (for domains) and team leaders (for teams). Team leaders will have the mean of adjusting the team description, URL references, preferred charset, even transmitting leadership to someone else (but not back, once done! :-). They should be able to add translators to the registry or modify their description, handle alternative spelling of names, edit email aliases, home URLs, the autosend flag, and of course, the attribution of domains to translators. Some of the control may be given to translators themselves, but until things get very stable, they will have to go through team leaders. Maintainers will get the capability of deciding which versions of their packages to protect against expiry, editing notification address and URLs for upload, as well as forcing the full processing of ready POT files. Team leaders or maintainers will be able to send special messages to the robot, containing one liner commands. For a good while, I'll postpone a more easy/sexy Web interface. After validation, a random password will be generated and returned to the submitter, and the set of requests will be saved by the robot into a hidden directory along with the crypted version of the password. The submitter will have to return the password to the robot, without the original requests, to confirm them. This is to defeat forgeries. On receipt of the password, it will be crypted again and the crypted value used as a key to recover the original set of requests. The requests will be validated again, in case the registry evolved in the meantime, and the modifications will become permanent if everything validates properly. Non-confirmed requests will be dismissed after five days, maybe. PGP will not be present in the initial scheme, but might be added in a later step, if there is enough demand for it. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Nov 12 19:05:43 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:05:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA24058 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:52:14 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA06827 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 04:47:15 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from pop.telekabel.at (pop.telekabel.at [195.34.134.66]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06817; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 04:47:06 -0500 Received: from mgate3.telekabel.at ([195.34.133.22]) by pop.telekabel.at (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-62303U40000L40000S0V35) with ESMTP id at; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:46:26 +0100 Received: from dp ([212.17.123.139]) by mgate3.telekabel.at (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-57067U15000L15000S0V35) with SMTP id at; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:46:25 +0100 From: "Denis Perchine" To: "François Pinard" , "Translation Project" Subject: RE: Moving registry control towards leaders Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:48:01 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 0aba60aa0c9db66b480f4645e7002844 Status: RO Content-Length: 195 Lines: 10 Hello, > PGP will not be present in the initial scheme, but might be added in a > later step, if there is enough demand for it. I personally prefer PGP... If it will work... :-))) CU, Denis. From jtarrio Fri Nov 12 19:06:00 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:05:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA07173 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:40:12 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29643 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:34:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mexico.brainstorm.fr (ns.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29630; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:34:39 -0500 Received: from brasil (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1/mexico-1.3/nospam) with ESMTP id SAA12771; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:34:41 +0100 (envelope-from dumas@gandalf.freenix.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1/brasil-1.4/nospam) with UUCP id SAA21615; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:34:21 +0100 (envelope-from dumas@gandalf.freenix.org) Received: (from dumas@localhost) by gandalf.freenix.org (8.9.3/8.8.7/gandalf-1.3) id JAA03050; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:34:04 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:34:04 -0800 From: Eric Dumas To: Denis Perchine Cc: François Pinard , Translation Project Subject: Re: Moving registry control towards leaders Message-ID: <19991110093404.A3046@gandalf.freenix.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: ; from Denis Perchine on Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 10:48:01AM -0000 X-Operating-System: Linux gandalf 2.2.5-22 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 56069d98e82e538f4a256f438d9b6740 Status: RO Content-Length: 538 Lines: 15 According to Denis Perchine: > Hello, > > > PGP will not be present in the initial scheme, but might be added in a > > later step, if there is enough demand for it. > > I personally prefer PGP... If it will work... :-))) François, add this feature only if you have time - I do not think this is a high priority at the beginning. -- Eric Dumas (dumas@Linux.EU.Org, dumas@freenix.org) http://www.freenix.org/~dumas/ -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- From jtarrio Fri Nov 12 19:06:37 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:06:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA10119 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:04:06 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA03104 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:59:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (root@rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03101 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:59:03 -0500 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20532 for <@jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca:team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca>; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:59:57 -0500 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id OAA07296 for team-leaders@iro.umontreal.ca; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:02:44 -0800 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26A8309B; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:00:26 -0500 (EST) To: Translation Project Subject: Linux International X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 10 Nov 1999 13:59:48 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1a25441dd527fc4215325c0d72ce5a56 Status: RO Content-Length: 205 Lines: 5 Hello, people. I should have told you that Linux International resolved its difficulties, two weeks ago, for those who would not already know. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Nov 12 19:10:39 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:10:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA24089 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:31:09 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA00764 for team-leaders-outgoing; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:29:35 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (IDENT:root@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.26.206]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00761 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:29:34 -0500 Received: (from pinard@localhost) by trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA07518; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:29:34 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:29:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199911120229.VAA07518@trex.IRO.UMontreal.CA> From: Translation Project Robot To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: New PO Template file for `parted' Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: b49ff723223acf4a00b52c2a88908b6c Status: RO Content-Length: 1071 Lines: 27 My nicest hello to all national team leaders. This is a message from the Translation Project robot. A new PO Template file, for programs using the textual domain `parted', has just been made available to national teams for translation, and a copy is available as: > http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/contrib/po/pot/parted-1.0.0-pre8.pot The file should be made available in Europe within one day as: > ftp://ftp.unex.es/pub/gnu-i18n/po/pot/parted-1.0.0-pre8.pot Your team will have been notified only if it committed a translation already for this package. Otherwise, it is up to you and your team to decide exactly how a translator might be recruited to take care of it. Here is some URL information that could be provided to translators for this package: > ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/parted/parted-1.0.0-pre8.tar.gz Thanks for your collaboration, The Translation Project robot, in the name of your kind translation coordinator. mailto:translation@iro.umontreal.ca From jtarrio Fri Nov 19 23:33:43 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:33:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00301 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:13:16 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10426 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:09:50 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (root@rtsq.grics.qc.ca [199.84.132.81]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10420 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:09:49 -0500 Received: from ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca by jupiter.rtsq.qc.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA25335; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:10:49 -0500 Received: from iro.umontreal.ca (uucp@localhost) by ariel.progiciels-bpi.ca (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI) via UUCP id PAA17322; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:13:30 -0800 Received: from titan.progiciels-bpi.ca.progiciels-bpi.ca (unknown [199.84.132.86]) by icule.progiciels-bpi.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E58309B; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:12:43 -0500 (EST) To: "Dmitry S. Sivachenko" Cc: Translation Project Subject: Re: FTP access References: <199911151900.WAA59799@netserv1.chg.ru> X-Face: "b_m|CE6#'Q8fliQrwHl9K,]PA_o'*S~Dva{~b1n*)K*A(BIwQW.:LY?t4~xhYka_.LV?Qq `}X|71X0ea&H]9Dsk!`kxBXlG;q$mLfv_vtaHK_rHFKu]4'<*LWCyUe@ZcI6"*wB5M@[m Date: 15 Nov 1999 15:11:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Dmitry S. Sivachenko"'s message of "Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:00:12 +0300 (MSK)" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 262e1405675c8f17042118d61fc1b191 Status: RO Content-Length: 947 Lines: 23 "Dmitry S. Sivachenko" writes: > Hello! I would like to make an FTP mirror of the translation project > repository in Russia. Could you please enable anonymous FTP access to > ftp.iro.umontreal.ca to let me mirror your archive? Hello, Dmitry. If you ever establish a mirror, let me know, so I would announce it. I may not reestablish FTP access. I'm not an administrator at DIRO/UdeM, but nevertheless, I know that the site-wide removal of FTP services has been a long and difficult enterprise for the adminsitrators there. Now it has succeeded, I much doubt they would accept to go back. Santiago Vila maintains an FTP archive, in Spain, which is mirrored out of the Web access to DIRO/UdeM. Maybe you could get in contact, and then exchange tricks or techniques? I'm Cc:ing all team leaders, in case others would like to share opinions or similar initiatives. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard From jtarrio Fri Nov 19 23:33:46 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:33:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA22974 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:51:11 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13338 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:49:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from mexico.brainstorm.fr (ns.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13327; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:49:24 -0500 Received: from brasil (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1/mexico-1.3/nospam) with ESMTP id VAA01294; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:50:54 +0100 (envelope-from dumas@gandalf.freenix.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.fr (8.9.1a/8.9.1/brasil-1.4/nospam) with UUCP id VAA04612; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:49:05 +0100 (envelope-from dumas@gandalf.freenix.org) Received: (from dumas@localhost) by gandalf.freenix.org (8.9.3/8.8.7/gandalf-1.3) id MAA00879; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:39:26 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:39:26 -0800 From: Eric Dumas To: François Pinard Cc: "Dmitry S. Sivachenko" , Translation Project Subject: Re: FTP access Message-ID: <19991115123926.A875@gandalf.freenix.org> References: <199911151900.WAA59799@netserv1.chg.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: ; f rom François Pinard on Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 03:11:3 3PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux gandalf 2.2.5-22 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 56694c6f17700ea7e67c96f0fb052c0d Status: RO Content-Length: 395 Lines: 9 According to François Pinard: > I'm Cc:ing all team leaders, in case others would like to share opinions > or similar initiatives. François, I can make one mirror in France if you need it. -- Eric Dumas (dumas@Linux.EU.Org, dumas@freenix.org) http://www.freenix.org/~dumas/ -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- Linux -- From jtarrio Fri Nov 19 23:33:52 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:33:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA08240 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:53:31 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20886 for team-leaders-outgoing; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:49:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from talula.icicle.yi.org (root@12dyn105.delft.casema.net [212.64.19.105]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20862; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:49:11 -0500 Received: from spark.icicle.yi.org (really [192.168.1.6]) by talula.icicle.yi.org via smail with esmtp (ident root using rfc1413) id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:33:42 +0100 (CET) Received: by spark.icicle.yi.org via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:38:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:38:31 +0100 From: Ivo Timmermans To: François Pinard Cc: "Dmitry S. Sivachenko" , Translation Project Subject: Re: FTP access Message-ID: <19991115233830.A2933@spark.icicle.yi.org> Reply-To: itimmermans@bigfoot.com References: <199911151900.WAA59799@netserv1.chg.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" User-Agent: Mutt/1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from pinard@IRO.UMontreal.CA on ma, nov 15, 1999 at 03:11:33 -0500 Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 65a4c57f77bdd279a0dcdec4d86d6bc8 Status: RO Content-Length: 879 Lines: 35 --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon Nov 15 1999, Fran=E7ois Pinard wrote: > "Dmitry S. Sivachenko" writes: >=20 =2E.. >=20 > I'm Cc:ing all team leaders, in case others would like to share opinions > or similar initiatives. I may be able to arrange a Dutch mirror (on ftp.nl.linux.org) if there is any demand for it. I doubt it would be useful though. --=20 Ivo Timmermans You are just jealous because the little voices are talking to me. --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE4MItmbTEMl+oVcvERAqn/AKCHKYifEqeJk9soaIG6uvczCyVHswCeJUkq oTn0mcMIlA3kGMbm+5Q4BQQ= =QOhV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From jtarrio Fri Nov 19 23:40:08 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 19 Nov 1999 23:40:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA15613 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:34:59 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA27085 for team-leaders-outgoing; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:42:45 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from cs.umb.edu (root@[158.121.104.2]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27082 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:42:44 -0500 Received: from hub.cs.umb.edu (karl@hub.cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.161]) by cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06066 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from karl@localhost) by hub.cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA01000; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:42:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:42:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911191042.FAA01000@hub.cs.umb.edu> From: karl@gnu.org To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: team-leaders archive Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 06a0f400024c2f023266f60f21f2f3c6 Status: RO X-Status: A Content-Length: 319 Lines: 9 I thought I'd mention that François and I set up an archive for team-leaders, it's at http://freefriends.org/mail/team-leaders/. Right now it's just a flat file, but I'll have a mhonarc version eventually. It starts on November 9, if anyone has an archive of messages before that, please let me know ... karl@gnu.org From jtarrio Sat Nov 20 18:27:11 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sat, 20 Nov 1999 18:27:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10420 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 14:53:44 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA27331 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 08:51:12 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from rachael.franken.de (rachael.franken.de [193.175.24.38]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27328 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 08:51:10 -0500 Received: by rachael.franken.de via sendmail with stdio id for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 14:51:05 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built DST-Sep-8) Received: from chico.franken.de(193.175.24.33) via SMTP by rachael.franken.de, id smtpdAAAa06359; Sat Nov 20 14:50:31 1999 Received: by chico.franken.de with UUCP for team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA id m11pAuM-005CPWC; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 14:50:30 +0100 (MET) Received: by tux.gnu.franken.de (Postfix, from userid 0) id CA5981C8DC; Sat, 20 Nov 1999 12:37:10 +0100 (CET) To: karl@gnu.org Cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: team-leaders archive References: <199911191042.FAA01000@hub.cs.umb.edu> From: Karl EICHWALDER Date: 20 Nov 1999 12:37:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: karl@gnu.org's message of "Fri, 19 Nov 1999 05:42:36 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 33388a1f3ed257842a227a9c6315049b Status: RO Content-Length: 807 Lines: 21 karl@gnu.org writes: | I thought I'd mention that François and I set up an archive for | team-leaders, it's at http://freefriends.org/mail/team-leaders/. | Right now it's just a flat file, but I'll have a mhonarc version | eventually. Thanks for your efforts! | It starts on November 9, if anyone has an archive of messages before | that, please let me know ... I still have some 10 messages prior to 1999-11-09; if you think it helps, I can bounce these to you (or I can mail these as a compressed attachement), as you like it. -- work : ke@suse.de | : http://www.suse.de/~ke/ | ------ ,__o personal: ke@gnu.franken.de | ------ _-\_<, : http://www.franken.de/users/gnu/ke/ | ------ (*)/'(*) From jtarrio Sun Nov 21 16:48:23 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:48:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA08101 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:36:51 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA03356 for team-leaders-outgoing; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 06:30:44 -0500 Received: from uddeborg.pp.se (IDENT:root@d212-151-39-98.swipnet.se [212.151.39.98]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03353 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 06:30:42 -0500 Received: (from göran@localhost) by uddeborg.pp.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15027; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:29:41 +0100 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:29:41 +0100 Message-Id: <199911211129.MAA15027@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Authentication-Warning: uebn.uddeborg.pp.se: göran set sender to göran@uddeborg.pp.se using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: karl@gnu.org Cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: team-leaders archive In-Reply-To: <199911191042.FAA01000@hub.cs.umb.edu> References: <199911191042.FAA01000@hub.cs.umb.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 20.3.1 X-URL: http://www.uddeborg.pp.se/g%F6ran/ From: Göran Uddeborg Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 7801d7e903d1405566f8d6651836d522 Status: RO Content-Length: 242 Lines: 8 > I thought I'd mention that François and I set up an archive for > team-leaders, it's at http://freefriends.org/mail/team-leaders/. And how do I access it? Forbidden You don't have permission to access /mail/team-leaders/ on this server. From jtarrio Fri Nov 26 21:36:13 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:36:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28348 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:54:40 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA23117 for team-leaders-outgoing; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:24:34 -0500 Received: from uddeborg.pp.se (IDENT:root@d212-151-58-231.swipnet.se [212.151.58.231]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA23112 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:24:31 -0500 Received: (from göran@localhost) by uddeborg.pp.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17863; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:24:23 +0100 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:24:23 +0100 Message-Id: <199911231024.LAA17863@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Authentication-Warning: uebn.uddeborg.pp.se: göran set sender to göran@uddeborg.pp.se using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA CC: sv@li.org Subject: Infrastructure for manual pages etc. X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 20.3.1 X-URL: http://www.uddeborg.pp.se/g%F6ran/ From: Göran Uddeborg Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1947563cfe765edc0d84fd7ba9959137 Status: U I would like to suggest the robot and file structure should be extended to be able to cope with manual pages and similar documents to be translated. I know we have discussed this briefly before. And several people, myself included, have felt that we have enough to do with message catalogs for the moment, and we can wait to attend to these things until that is more complete. But I have changed my mind for a couple of reasons, and will try to convince the rest of you. The first reason is arguments some in the Swedish translation team have felt it more important to translate manual pages in packages used by many, than message catalogs in more special purpose packages. I must admit this reasoning makes sense to me. Then, at least for manual pages, there is support in the "man" command to look for translated manual pages, and on my computer the package net-tools already contains some translated pages. Since these things start to appear, some kind of infrastructure to handle them is needed. And I would much rather see that in the Free Translation Project, than to see Yet Another Translation Project appear. I haven't programmed the robot, but I imagine it would not be too hard to extend it to offer these services too. An extension of the allowable header formats and a decision on the directory format would be needed, of course. And surely there will be some other unforseen complicating details, there always are. But I hope it would be feasible without too much trouble. So what do you think? From jtarrio Fri Nov 26 21:37:09 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:37:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA00815 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:16:58 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA06328 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:13:08 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA: majordom set sender to owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA using -f Received: from cs.umb.edu (cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.2]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06319 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:13:02 -0500 Received: from hub.cs.umb.edu (karl@hub.cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.161]) by cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09759 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:12:28 -0500 (EST) From: Karl Berry Received: (from karl@localhost) by hub.cs.umb.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00878; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:12:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:12:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911242112.QAA00878@hub.cs.umb.edu> To: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: team-leaders archive Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 364eb5a75c6395451741faeab885b082 Status: U > team-leaders, it's at http://freefriends.org/mail/team-leaders/. And how do I access it? Please try now. Sorry about that. From jtarrio Fri Nov 26 21:37:12 1999 Received: from pop.ctv.es by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for jtarrio@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:37:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA [132.204.24.67]) by correo.ctv.es (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA04877 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:09:16 +0100 (MET) X-Envelope-To: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA10529 for team-leaders-outgoing; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:08:24 -0500 Received: from uddeborg.pp.se (IDENT:root@d212-151-92-111.swipnet.se [212.151.92.111]) by mercure.IRO.UMontreal.CA (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10526 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:08:21 -0500 Received: (from göran@localhost) by uddeborg.pp.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21322; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:08:15 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:08:15 +0100 Message-Id: <199911242208.XAA21322@uddeborg.pp.se> X-Authentication-Warning: uebn.uddeborg.pp.se: göran set sender to göran@uddeborg.pp.se using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Karl Berry Cc: team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Subject: Re: team-leaders archive In-Reply-To: <199911242112.QAA00878@hub.cs.umb.edu> References: <199911242112.QAA00878@hub.cs.umb.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 20.3.1 X-URL: http://www.uddeborg.pp.se/g%F6ran/ From: Göran Uddeborg Sender: owner-team-leaders@IRO.UMontreal.CA Precedence: bulk X-UIDL: 1599eacbb20b7228eb5f60fdeac08f7e Status: U > Please try now. Yes, now I was allowed to look there.